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julesverne
Illuminati possibly ? Not that i believe that crap.
- Thread starter Whyme
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Discuss party political broadcasts in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net
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D
Dotty
Illuminati have never existed. Trust me on this.
They were 'created' by fantasists and story tellers.
They were 'created' by fantasists and story tellers.
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Unfortunately its the world we live in. Politicians look to score points off of each other thereby somebody says that immigration controls should be tightened and then they are labelled a racist. Which anybody with an ounce of common sense would see as not being true.
Politicians need to stick to politics and forget the crap that goes on.
Also is making a statement that if you are a ukip member then you are racist not the same as somebody saying all muslims are terrorists?
Both statements in my eyes are untrue. Unfoftunately you will always get short sighted people on both sides of the argument.
Which is why politics on a plumbing forum doesnt work. Imho
Politicians need to stick to politics and forget the crap that goes on.
Also is making a statement that if you are a ukip member then you are racist not the same as somebody saying all muslims are terrorists?
Both statements in my eyes are untrue. Unfoftunately you will always get short sighted people on both sides of the argument.
Which is why politics on a plumbing forum doesnt work. Imho
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sheff paul
The term 'Sheeple' will apply to you,i don't believe in Lizard people,well some birds ive been with may resemble one,but things just aint right with the world,everyone see's it apart from the career polys who all sound the same now,as you have all said on this thread,the big corporations own the world now,along with the banks,every one bought 911 at the time,but now the net has moved on it looks faker than ever,if the USA would kill thousands of its own people,starting a war is nothing.if you want the truth turn off the BBC,put on RT,and also Al Jazeera and draw a balance some where
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sheff paul
Croppie crawl into your cave with a copy of gardeners world,when you come out it may be the 1960's again and all things are rosy,as for me I am gonna be like 'keanu' in the matrix and score with the hot chicks and runaway from the suited men..
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sheff paul
gotta go now ive got David Icke coming round for a brew..
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Dotty
I'm in the inner circle of what you believe to be the NWO Paul
You want to waste your time and energy believing all that faff then all power to you.
It's a waste of time though
You want to waste your time and energy believing all that faff then all power to you.
It's a waste of time though
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sheff paul
how long you being a Mason
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Dotty
Long enough.
Mark, RA, and a few others.....
Mark, RA, and a few others.....
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sheff paul
if you and your 'Mason' buddies come round tonite to try and get me I am gonna set the Labrador on you...
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Dotty
Mason's you fool.
Not the bleeding mormons!
I'd help your dog bite the mormons!
Not the bleeding mormons!
I'd help your dog bite the mormons!
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sheff paul
got your card marked croppie,you funny lot with your dodgy handshakes,and demonic rituals,your not cutting my brake lines,or stuffing me into a bag
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Dotty
There's no funny handshakes going on. That's just a myth.........
Or demonic rituals. There are re-enactments of allegorical stories though.....
Or demonic rituals. There are re-enactments of allegorical stories though.....
M
Masood
Nobody made that statement as far as I can see, Simon. But there has been a disturbing number of outright racist, homophobic and misogynistic views expressed by UKIP candidates.
Each and every time, Farage has tried to distance himself from the individual, and they have either or been sacked. But this seems no more than a smokescreen - people are not generally able to rise to prominent positions in political parties whilst espousing views opposing those of the party. Is he claiming that ALL of these bigots have been Trojan horses? That he has been surprised by their views which they have managed to conceal thus far? If so, then he is a fool and a very poor judge of character. I personally believe that UKIP is comprised of the more articulate end of the far right.
As for the Muslims and terrorist comparison - again, very valid. But when the 9/11 and London bombings occurred there was a huge, strident expectation that moderate Muslims speak out against the terrorists and distance themselves from those views, and very rightly so. Nobody should support such atrocities. I don't think it is asking too much for those who claim to be liberal to be vocal in their disapproval of UKIP's thug element. I don't see or hear much of that.
UKIP is tapping into an exclusionary island mentality inherent in a large element of UK society. Having colonised and interfered with large areas of the world, having invited people in when cheap labour was required, that element now wants to close the doors and get rid of those it invited in. Ask yourself why ethnic minorities have set up enclaves. There is a whole generation of people who tried very hard to integrate but were rejected, vilified and brutally, violently rebuffed. That generation withdrew into itself and taught the next generation not to even try and be British, as it's futile. The current ghetto situation in so much of the North West is a direct result of racism in the 60s, 70s and 80s. Those disenfranchised people were seduced by the fundamentalists because they felt they did not belong, would never belong, and had nothing to lose. UKIP is furthering that sense of division and alienation.
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sheff paul
that is all well and good Mas,BUTcan you tell me why knocked down a perfectly good chipshop in Sheffield to put a Mosque on it.
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julesverne
I'll hazard a guess because no one was buying fish and chips. Would you be asking the same if it was a church of Christian persuasion
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The funny hand shake brigade your in.
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Masood
Well, let me see - without knowing the actual circumstances (as I doubt you do, either), I might guess that the chippie might not have been making money, that the premises were up for sale, and that some people bought the place, got planning permission, and built a mosque.
Or I could speculate that there is some massive jihadist movement to stamp out fish and potato consumption in the UK. Unlikely as Islam does not ban either fish or root vegetables. Maybe the fundamentalists don't like pickled eggs? Who knows? It's all a big mystery. Or not.
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sheff paul
I will have you know 'Jules' they sold the best battered sausage in Sheffield....
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sheff paul
aahhh so you do know the reason....
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Ray Stafford
Thanks for the "articulate". I'm less sure about the "far right" part.
What thug element Mas? As you say, Farage has sacked or forced to resign some people who shot their mouths off. But thats just talk. I think I am right in saying that UKIP is the only party which bans former BNP members from joining. Show me some thuggery, and I'll be there to voice my disapproval.
Hang on a moment! I haven't colonised anyone, and neither has anyone I know. Name me any major country in the world, and I will find you something in their history to beat the current population with.
Sorry Mas, but you've got it wrong again. I don't want to get rid of anyone, except possibly a few criminals that would have been sent home under existing laws if our government had not lost track of them. I don't even want to close the door - I just want to see control of that door to be a) effective and b) decided by politicians who are democratically accountable to the people of the UK not bureaucrats in Brussels.
Sure, there has been some cr@p behaviour. I cringe to think that I share a species with some people - whether the skinhead thugs of my youth or their sons and grandsons of today. I look back at the casual racism of the 70s and 80s (sorry, don't remember the 60s) with shame and disgust. We don't, incidentally, need skin colour to divide us in order to behave badly - as the history of Northern Ireland demonstrates all to well.
But the solution is not to pretend that there isn't a problem - which was effectively what Labour claimed from 1997 to 2010, with little better being done since. The solution is to accept that there is a problem, and to start a grown up debate about it.
This is not helped if every time someone tries to open the debate, we start finger-pointing and shouting racist. Its the very fact that the three major parties are frightened of addressing the situation that has led us to where we are.
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Masood
Really, Ray? So Britain's historical role in the world is not relevant? Two wrongs don't make a right so even if you can find something odious in other nations' histories, using that as an excuse to abdicate responsibility for British colonialism is pretty facile.
So you haven't personally colonised any country. Guess what? I haven't personally tried to impose Sharia law on anyone, but as a (albeit very lapsed) Muslim, I am condemned under UKIPs policies and views.
YOU don't want to get rid of anyone, but UKIP do. That is why I am so surprised at you. Whether you personally support that policy is not really relevant as long as you support the organisation that supports it. When you vote UKIP, you cannot state that you only support stronger border controls. You vote for ALL their policies with one single cross on the ballot paper.
You're right, shouting racist to stifle debate is unhelpful, but then so is failing to call a spade a spade. The UKIP may claim to ban former BNP members form joining. How exactly do they enforce this? It's an very easy claim to make, because they know that there is NO way for anyone to dispute it. The rhetoric and behaviour of certain UKIP members paint a different picture...
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Ray Stafford
I'll happily debate both the positive and negative impacts of British colonial history with you Mas - but perhaps on another thread. However, wheeling out "colonialism guilt" without an enormous contextual background as part of this debate is roughly as useful as shouting "racist". Can I recommend Thomas Sowells masterly trilogy "Race and Culture", "Conquest and Culture" and "Migrations and Cultures" which investigates the issue with commendable thoroughness and acuity?
Before answering this thread, I thought I had better check my facts. So I re-read the official UKIP policy on their website. I also read their manifestos for both the European and local elections. I can find nothing there that calls for repatriation, expulsion or anything similar. Or, for that matter, anything remotely anti-muslim.
So I can only see three possibilities.
1) I have missed some critical document which lays out such a policy or
2) That there is some hidden policy set of which you are aware, but I am not
3) That you have been made to think that UKIP has policies which in fact they don't have, by parties or individuals in whose interests it is to rubbish UKIP.
I will confess that I found an excess of material relating to immigration, and (to my mind) insufficient on what I consider to be the core issue of leaving the EU. I think that this is both a tactical and strategic mistage, and had I been asked, I would have counselled against it.
An unfortunate choice of metaphor.
I suspect that they can only police it by exception - ie by ejecting from membership someone who it discovers was a BNP member. Although BNP membership lists were in the public domain some years ago, as a number of people lost their jobs by virtue of their membership.
It is a trick as old as politics to impute foul hidden motives to ones opponents, and to seek amongst their more extreme supporters those who can be held up as the "true face" of whatever-it-is-you-want-to-rubbish. It behoves all of us to look more carefully at the actual facts and evidence, and not to take positions based on either emotion or on ethnic, political, religious or sectarian loyalties.
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Whyme
i got married in a masonic lodge. had a choice of upstairs in a weird room with a chessboard like floor or downstairs. Plumped for downstairs as it looked less hammer horror,esq.
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Dotty
That weird room with the chequered floor would have been the main temple. You should have gone for that as the opportunity doesn't arise often.....
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julesverne
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Masood
Come on Ray, nobody is wheeling out colonial guilt. I am making the point that Britain opened it's doors to immigration both as a recompense of sorts to the colonies, but also when cheap labour was needed. It is very mealy-mouthed to now turn round and say, "sorry we've decided we don't like foreigners after all".
You are not that naive, Ray, and neither am I. Even the BNP don't put overtly racist or xenophobic rhetoric on their public documents. That would be far too honest and also illegal. Look at what an alarming number of UKIP candidates have actually said - what has slipped out when the guard has dropped - THAT is my real problem. That several UKIP candidates have shown themselves to be racist, homophobic and generally unpleasant characters. You don't honestly believe that they have ALL managed to rise to senior positions whilst keeping their true beliefs hidden? I think the party as a whole have no objection to these views, probably support them in private, but in public, profess abhorrence.
An unfortunate choice of metaphor.
Deliberate, for dramatic effect.
It is also a trick as old as politics to sacrifice the odd scapegoat and deny any that the party as a whole shares their views. I could find racism amongst Tories and quite probably Labour candidates as well. But the sheer number of such statements coming from UKIP candidates, in such a short period of time, shows that there is likely a prevailing sentiment within the party.
But, as I said in our PM exchange, I don't believe for one minute that you are a racist. I understand your discomfort at finding English becoming a minority language in parts of the UK - I also hate the ghetto mentality. But throwing your lot in with UKIP does you a disservice. I also get the point you make about them not being 100% your ideal but the best of a bad lot. But supporting the best of a bad lot lets the worst of the lot sneak in by the back door.
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Ray Stafford
I think we are going to have to agree to differ. I get the feeling that we are the two noisy people arguing furiously in the corner of the bar, whilst everyone else in the pub is wishing we would shut the blinking flip up.
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Toxic Ted
I have just spent an hour writing a book about what is wrong with this country and why and then read it back. Sorry to disappoint those eager to read but i had written a couple of pages of drivel so deleted the lot. If i were a politician then i would probably have posted it. That is not a remark directed at anyone elses posts, just my inability to write a legible post of more than two sentences.
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Dotty
Uncanny that.........
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Masood
I agree...
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Better take my popcorn back then, was hoping for a right old scrap
have to say its refreshing to see two men debate politics where they both have very good reasoning for their views and not getting personal with each other, you big girls
have to say its refreshing to see two men debate politics where they both have very good reasoning for their views and not getting personal with each other, you big girls
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Dotty
Just found an interesting website that weighs up the pro's and cons of voting for UKIP.
Should I vote UKIP?
Should I vote UKIP?
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I think if one of the rules about voting was that you have to agree 100% with the party you are voting for then nobody would vote. I had to laugh at Labours party political broadcast tonight. Nothing in it about what they will do but all about how the current one is. Now the only other one I have seen was the BNP and most of that was censored so not much to compare with.
Now if somebody comes along and says this is what we are going to do and this is how we are going to do it and it works for me, then they can have my X come election day.
But there's about as much chance of that than there is England winning the world cup.
It's been a controlled debate, I was expecting world war 3.
Now if somebody comes along and says this is what we are going to do and this is how we are going to do it and it works for me, then they can have my X come election day.
But there's about as much chance of that than there is England winning the world cup.
It's been a controlled debate, I was expecting world war 3.
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Thats a really well balanced document.
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sheff paul
come on then croppie master who gets your vote then.
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Dotty
I'm still undecided, we have different parties over here. 3 I would never vote for, 2 others? dunno yet.
But personally I treat politics like religion. Each man, in his heart of hearts, knows what he is. And that makes it a purely personal matter.
But personally I treat politics like religion. Each man, in his heart of hearts, knows what he is. And that makes it a purely personal matter.
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sheff paul
bit more hard core I suppose over there with the troubles,i was researching life in Belfast the other day(no work on)its turned into one of the safest citys in the UK now,
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Dotty
Still at high level threats of terrorism though. Every other week there's a new dissident republican group spring up......
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sheff paul
must have been strange growing up,thinking I could get kneecapped today or worse,i just had to avoid vennerial disease..
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Dotty
Dunno, never grew up here, I've only been over here 9 years. I'm a Londoner Paul.
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sheff paul
your gonna be riddled like me then..
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Ray Stafford
I reckon we should ask Dan to re-configure the forum so that this is automatically posted every time the subject turns to religion, politics or Worcester Bosch boilers.
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Masood
I reckon we should ask Dan to re-configure the forum so that this is automatically posted every time the subject turns to religion, politics or Worcester Bosch boilers.
Or better still an animated .gif of Father Jack shouting "That would be an ecumenical matter!"
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sheff paul
Friggin hell Mas you sound a bit too well heeled to be a plumber.
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sheff paul
View attachment 18608
I reckon we should ask Dan to re-configure the forum so that this is automatically posted every time the subject turns to religion, politics or Worcester Bosch boilers.
Look Ray if your tryin to say I am a 'knob' at times ok,just don't expect to understand this one
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