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hunterseye
Just been asked how much to remove a rad for decorating. I know its standard stuff and not a massive job. Am i over charging at 20 quid?
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Over charging.
Discuss Over charging. in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net
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Plum Bob 66
Tamz, I think everybody on the forum would agree by your posts and advice that your wealth of knowledge is enviable,invaluable and unbeatable.That said your experiences of the trade seem to suggest you are somewhat disalusioned. There is still plenty of work to be had out there you just have to take take the job by the balls and have some confidence, sure you will make mistakes but that's all part of the learning curve.Its not repeating them that counts.When your sat at home with your pipe and slippers reaping the rewards of your labour its us new boys who will be the next generation who are taking their business forward. I base this on my own experience, my business is going from strength to strength with more and more repeat business coming in and im sure im not the only one.
Bob.
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850Rick
Its still going ahead as planned Northstar.we have to sign upto our level 3 early or we will miss out.Any wanting to do it from september this year for level 2 will need a placement so the college say,
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850Rick
The time served plumbers are ok its from the now there tryng to change it.Its all about regs and money and so on.
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petercj
All FE colleges have been given a deadline for ending the practice of 100% college based NVQ training, which covers all training sectors, e.g. plumbing, catering, etc, etc.
The colleges will be moving towards Diploma qualifications, C&G, etc.
The Government have effectively cut funding to FE colleges - they say they have made £xxxxx.000's available for apprenticeships, but as many businesses are struggling to keep the staff on they have at the moment, the Government's pledging of cash is pretty safe, i.e. it won't be taken up.
There needs to be coordination and long-term planning of training, and of course the business environment at national level - most politicians haven't been interested in skills training, the focus having been on University education, which they've now managed to make a mess of.
Most of the dimwits in Westminster think in terms of: blue collar - white collar, i.e working with your head, or your hands, they don't get the idea that both increasingly play a part in today's world where things are constantly changing and becoming more technical.
Vince Cable occasionally says something sensible, but then Nick calls him in to give him a metaphorical slap for talking out of turn.
This country would be best served if the Tories hived off business development and related growth to the LD,s, thus giving Vince Cable a shot at getting things going again. The idea that the Tories are good at business is old hat - maybe in the days of Ted Heath there were people in his cabinet that were self-made men, but that's not the case these days. Silver spoon brigade now! Same goes for the Labour Party.
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850Rick
I got away with not paying for my level 2 but got to pay for my level 3 as funding has already been cut.Diploma is already in force with City and Guilds anyway. AQF is also a new Qual but also a bridge over from say 6129 to 6189 or what ever it is.The funny thing is the college dont no alot about the bridge over yet with it being new lol
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hunterseye
We've not even been offered lev 3 Rick. It's a case of thanks for your money,there's the door oh and sorry for ripping you off over 60 hours on the course coz we couldn't manage to keep hold of not one or two but 5 lecturers. And people wonder why my knowloedge is limited. So you find yourself asking, what next? The only conclusion i came to was roll my sleeves up and try.
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TBServices
Personally speaking, I learnt a lot on my apprenticeship and tbh I wouldn't be half as good as I am if I'd not gained that experience. College taught me nothing about the practicalities of doing the job. I'm not saying you need an NVQ to get on, but walking out of college and setting up on your own does not make you competent in my eyes.
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Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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850Rick
You will be able to do the new Qual mate its a bridge over.Level 3 is surposed to be hard more indepth with heating,bit of gas and all the engergy stuff.In level 2 we are just scratching the surface with heating
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petercj
Diplomas have been around for the past 5 years or so - the colleges were put on notice of the issues around NVQ some years back too, having been given time to adjust.
To be fair to the colleges, they don't really know what to allow for. The Government plans suggested that there would be a demand for one-day-a week courses based on apprenticeships, but then the scale talked about was unrealistic, and as the recession has bitten harder and harder, so there is less chance of creating college courses that have work placements.
The abolition of the Adult Learning Grant was given hardly any coverage by the media. The media colluded with politicians by focusing on EMA, which they justified the scrapping of by saying that kids didn't need paying to stay on at school.
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hunterseye
totally agree. It does not make you competent. And if i'm honest, the whole adult education system stinks. The questions i ask are bread and butter to you boys, but to me i need to ask. I don't have any other avenue to turn other than to get on with the very small amount i've been taught at college. But you'd be naive to think that a two year tech cert would set you up in the trade. All it does is help you gain a small insight as to the tasks( and only a few at that)a plumber undertakes. So, if i must start small and work my way up, i want to try to do it right, if i don't know something i ask. Since there doesn't seem to be any post course guidance to turn to.
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tamz
I had a think about that one and can't quite put a date on it. Probably around the early to mid 2000's. It just kind of snuck up on me gradually.
Probably a lot of it is down to the change in people and attitudes, a lot with how the trade has been allowed to be degraded and devalued, training courses that teach nothing and make you competent and qualified in whatever you can afford to pay for while in reality being totally incompetent , the claim culture that make us fill in endless reams of useless paperwork just in case, the terrible workmanship i see daily etc etc.
Now it just pays the bills until i decide to cash my pension in.
City and Guilds are just an awarding body. There is no grey area. The only industry recognised qualification to be employed as a fully qualified plumber (as laid down by the Sector Skills Council and expected by employers) is an NVQ or SVQ . You can get away with an NVQ2 in England but in Scotland you need a minimum of SVQ3.
Don't hold your breath waiting for that one. The trade bodies have been trying for over a century to have plumbing licensed as it is in other parts of the world (including some so called 3rd world countries). There are many schemes currently in place like the CLE in Scotland but none of them are compulsory and they never will be especially in a domestic situation. The government do not have a vested interest in fixing the shambles our industry is in which they partly created.
That is good to know :lol:
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hunterseye
i just cant beleive the education system allows colleges to take your hard earned and start training you then not offer further progression. everyone on my course wanted to be there. we wanted to learn. yet the bread and butter of the college was full time students who didnt give a monkeys and didnt realise what an oppertunity they was throwing away. does my bonce in
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R1CKY
As a fairly young plumber (6 years in the trade) who has recently been through full time college, I agree with a lot that has been said regarding NVQs and even ACS. All they prove is that you can read a book and guess an answer. The amount of incompetent people that walked away with qualifications was unreal!
Fully agree with you, hunterseye, about the full time students. I was 18 when I started out plumbing, but a lot of my class was 16 year olds straight out of school, a lot of them were kicked off the course, what a waste of an oppurtunity. There were guys in your position who had to pay for their course and were fuming with the attitude of the younger ones!
Like others have said, don't undervalue yourself and good luck, we all had to start somewhere and not everyone is lucky enough to have done an apprenticeship.
Fully agree with you, hunterseye, about the full time students. I was 18 when I started out plumbing, but a lot of my class was 16 year olds straight out of school, a lot of them were kicked off the course, what a waste of an oppurtunity. There were guys in your position who had to pay for their course and were fuming with the attitude of the younger ones!
Like others have said, don't undervalue yourself and good luck, we all had to start somewhere and not everyone is lucky enough to have done an apprenticeship.
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As ever some pearls Tamz, two things, only just found out somewhere else that you can only do SVQ at level 3! & that is all that is recognised by industry. Why the bl..dy hell is it not the same in England ? might not stop the Tech Cert' ers but at least it sends the right signals.
Quite sad to hear you say the first bit, I hope its not quite as bad as you make out ? I do know were you are coming from though, for around 35 years I have lived & breathed it & for the the first time this year I am starting to question what I am doing.
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tamz
The tec cert is not a recognised qual at all up here at all, although there are some private centres who offer it but it is useless if you want a job. Perhaps someone in authority had a bit sense and saw it for what it was.
I believe if Scotland becomes independent in the future, that licensing will become a reality up here as the Scottish Government are very supportive of the idea (not just for plumbers) and encouraged the set up of the CLE CLE Construction Licensing Executive Home to promote it and work closely (and listen) with trade bodies. We'll see what happens.
You may find some of this interesting
SNIPEF Homepage
I can't give you the password i'm afraid but you should be able to open a lot of the links.
Since i first stumbled into plumbing at the age of 15 (i really wanted to be a doctor but needed some quick cash :lol
and nearly took the thumb off myself in my first 5 minutes, with the skill and deft of a hacksaw wielding apprentice surgeon, cutting a full 20ft bundle of 3/4" in half over my knee, i knew this was for me. My first real introduction to the world of tetanus which would hold me in good stead for the future! The black tape that was wrapped around the cut to hold my thumb on (i still have the 2" scar) and the slap i got on the back of the head for being a useless b........ just convinced me this was the world of real men :49: (the black tape and slap is true :smile: Changed days eh!)
I worked with some brilliant guys who could do things and knew things i never will and the company i worked with saw the potential in me and encouraged me to study. I soaked up knowledge from everyone i met from all trades learning the black arts, everything from how to cut a hole in a cast iron pipe with a hammer and chisel to the seduction of the middle aged married woman
I loved it and being part of something more valuable than money (although working 12- 15hrs days 7 days a week i made (and spent) a lot of that). It wasn't just a job (careers were for fannys), it was a vocation. It was my life blood.
Maybe i am just getting old and Victor Meldrew ish but i became a bit disillusioned and despondent over how things were moving in the industry. Many of the guys i know feel the same.
I now pick and choose what i do and for who. I like new challenges, maybe i just got bored :lol:
Maybe partly why i come on here is in a hope to pass some useful knowledge on in the hope of keeping standards up but we are only small fish in a big pond.
I believe if Scotland becomes independent in the future, that licensing will become a reality up here as the Scottish Government are very supportive of the idea (not just for plumbers) and encouraged the set up of the CLE CLE Construction Licensing Executive Home to promote it and work closely (and listen) with trade bodies. We'll see what happens.
You may find some of this interesting
SNIPEF Homepage
I can't give you the password i'm afraid but you should be able to open a lot of the links.
Since i first stumbled into plumbing at the age of 15 (i really wanted to be a doctor but needed some quick cash :lol
and nearly took the thumb off myself in my first 5 minutes, with the skill and deft of a hacksaw wielding apprentice surgeon, cutting a full 20ft bundle of 3/4" in half over my knee, i knew this was for me. My first real introduction to the world of tetanus which would hold me in good stead for the future! The black tape that was wrapped around the cut to hold my thumb on (i still have the 2" scar) and the slap i got on the back of the head for being a useless b........ just convinced me this was the world of real men :49: (the black tape and slap is true :smile: Changed days eh!)I worked with some brilliant guys who could do things and knew things i never will and the company i worked with saw the potential in me and encouraged me to study. I soaked up knowledge from everyone i met from all trades learning the black arts, everything from how to cut a hole in a cast iron pipe with a hammer and chisel to the seduction of the middle aged married woman
I loved it and being part of something more valuable than money (although working 12- 15hrs days 7 days a week i made (and spent) a lot of that). It wasn't just a job (careers were for fannys), it was a vocation. It was my life blood.
Maybe i am just getting old and Victor Meldrew ish but i became a bit disillusioned and despondent over how things were moving in the industry. Many of the guys i know feel the same.
I now pick and choose what i do and for who. I like new challenges, maybe i just got bored :lol:
Maybe partly why i come on here is in a hope to pass some useful knowledge on in the hope of keeping standards up but we are only small fish in a big pond.
Last edited by a moderator:
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hunterseye
Fully agree with you, hunterseye, about the full time students. I was 18 when I started out plumbing, but a lot of my class was 16 year olds straight out of school, a lot of them were kicked off the course, what a waste of an oppurtunity. There were guys in your position who had to pay for their course and were fuming with the attitude of the younger ones!
Like others have said, don't undervalue yourself and good luck, we all had to start somewhere and not everyone is lucky enough to have done an apprenticeship.[/QUOTE]Many thanks Ricky. i agree with pretty much all of it stated above. I can fully understand why experianced plumbers also take a dim view on tech certs, because just having completed one i also share that view. Bottom line is nothing beats experiance in the real world,but unfortunatly thats where all the doors close apart from the go it alone approach. Having said that, i also believe if a person is applied enough and focused on acheiving what they want this too can be accomplished. So whilst i dont blame some of the guys on here for maybe looking down on me for having a 'mickey mouse qual' i would just ask for a bit of understanding in the fact that i want to learn and want to do well.
Like others have said, don't undervalue yourself and good luck, we all had to start somewhere and not everyone is lucky enough to have done an apprenticeship.[/QUOTE]Many thanks Ricky. i agree with pretty much all of it stated above. I can fully understand why experianced plumbers also take a dim view on tech certs, because just having completed one i also share that view. Bottom line is nothing beats experiance in the real world,but unfortunatly thats where all the doors close apart from the go it alone approach. Having said that, i also believe if a person is applied enough and focused on acheiving what they want this too can be accomplished. So whilst i dont blame some of the guys on here for maybe looking down on me for having a 'mickey mouse qual' i would just ask for a bit of understanding in the fact that i want to learn and want to do well.
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R1CKY
Nobody should be looking down on anybody. Plumbing isn't a difficult trade, it is lack of confidence and experience that holds people back. I see it with apprentices all the time. As long as you are keen, have a good understanding of plumbing, take pride in your work and treat customers well, you won't go far wrong. Confidence and experience will come in time.
There is no shame in asking questions.
There is no shame in asking questions.
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Plum Bob 66
Great post tamz, but at 0237 you must have matchsticks propping your lids openThe tec cert is not a recognised qual at all up here at all, although there are some private centres who offer it but it is useless if you want a job. Perhaps someone in authority had a bit sense and saw it for what it was.
I believe if Scotland becomes independent in the future, that licensing will become a reality up here as the Scottish Government are very supportive of the idea (not just for plumbers) and encouraged the set up of the CLE CLE Construction Licensing Executive Home to promote it and work closely (and listen) with trade bodies. We'll see what happens.
You may find some of this interesting
SNIPEF Homepage
I can't give you the password i'm afraid but you should be able to open a lot of the links.
Since i first stumbled into plumbing at the age of 15 (i really wanted to be a doctor but needed some quick cash :lol
I worked with some brilliant guys who could do things and knew things i never will and the company i worked with saw the potential in me and encouraged me to study. I soaked up knowledge from everyone i met from all trades learning the black arts, everything from how to cut a hole in a cast iron pipe with a hammer and chisel to the seduction of the middle aged married woman :1eye:
I loved it and being part of something more valuable than money (although working 12- 15hrs days 7 days a week i made (and spent) a lot of that). It wasn't just a job (careers were for fannys), it was a vocation. It was my life blood.
Maybe i am just getting old and Victor Meldrew ish but i became a bit disillusioned and despondent over how things were moving in the industry. Many of the guys i know feel the same.
I now pick and choose what i do and for who. I like new challenges, maybe i just got bored :lol:
Maybe partly why i come on here is in a hope to pass some useful knowledge on in the hope of keeping standards up but we are only small fish in a big pond.
- Messages
- 5,072
R1CKY, I would humble suggest that you have neither knowledge or the experience to make this statement "Plumbing isn't a difficult trade" it is the most difficult of all to practice well. I have seen & worked with most of the trades & can say with some confident's that none come close. Plumbing is not just about pushing a few pipes together it covers such a wide range of disciplines & materials.
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petercj
Well said Ricky - GB has made a major investment in workplace training (NVQ), but there's a massive lack of workplaces at the moment.
GB needs a major re-think in many areas, and training is one of them.
Very sad to read of the experiences of some of the people posting on here re FE colleges. My eldest son has just completed his Advanced Diploma in Professional Cooking, and the moans and groans about the very young one's trying the patients of the tutors was very familiar. The college he trained at has it's own restaurant, so the students were able to get some practice, but because my son was 20 when he started the course he didn't get a penny by way of financial support. If he'd signed on and sat at home he would have got £60 per week, how can that ever make sense?
I hope all the guys on here that are currently struggling can get jobs and consolidate their training in the workplace - colleges can only ever do so much, and the old saying that: 'practice makes perfect' is a good goal to aim for.
Watching and learning from experience tradesmen is an invaluable experience, but putting down college qualifications is not the way to go.
Re your final sentence: as the saying goes: "The person who asks a questions risks looking ignorant for a moment, but the person who doesn't ask questions risks staying ignorant for a lifetime!"
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