Ventilation help!

[Dave'o]

Can anyone help please..

I'm trying to work out if this cooker has the required ventilation...kitchen has openable doors and windows witch is fine but there has been a conservatory build around the kitchen i.e around the door and windows.

I have a few documents about this but I can't seem the make sense of it all..please could someone explain this in simple terms..

"In the event that a conservatory is added to a building the general ventilation rate for the conservatory and where necessary the kitchen behind, may achieved by the use of background ventilators in the following manner:

1. There is from the conservatory to outside provision for both:
a). Purge ventilation with a total area based on a minimum of 1/20th the total floor area of the kitchen and conservatory and
b). Background ventilation of at least 8000mm2 (80cm2) and

2. There are openings which (must be closable) between the kitchen and conservatory for:
a). Purge ventilation equivalent to 1(a) above, and
b). Background ventilator of equivalent to 1(a) above and be located at least 1.7m above the floor.

The above method of providing ventilation to the kitchen through the conservatory will satisfy the requirement of BS 5440 (Clause 6.4) where there is no openable window (purge ventilation) direct to outside air.

 

[diamondgas]

i rung gas safe to cover myself just incase no other reason cos there would be a record of the call somewere,its not about being to serious it its about not loosing your badge thought a mistake aving paid out a fortune and someone not poping it thro your mistake,better safe than sorry in my book

metal....9 ... take a long breth in ............ and breath out ....................... slowly .............. relax my friend!


I use to chase fire engines! No ****!! It isn't that serious unless you kill someone! You're doing it right my friend, if you question!!

 

[kirkgas]

i rung gas safe to cover myself just incase no other reason cos there would be a record of the call somewere,its not about being to serious it its about not loosing your badge thought a mistake aving paid out a fortune and someone not poping it thro your mistake,better safe than sorry in my book

metal, take a chill pill man, it isnt about you throwing the dummy out of the pram cause you know what you are doing and nobody listens to you, having read the very easy post quoting the building regs etc, it seems that you are doing what you know, what you have been taught and more importantly what your mate at BG says, HOWEVER do you agree that the statement would seem to be that if there isnt an openable window or equivalant then your work should be classed as NCS, now where ever i have worked, trained and been taught it has never been my way to knowingly leave something as NCS, but please, and this isnt a dig at you, read the building reg quote and relate it to the ACTUAL job you are talking about and say whether you agree that what you are doing is NCS or different to the post, and whatever we all discuss on here helps enlighten us to the slight bits we are all getting wrong, and dont say you arent going to answer on here again cause we dont listen, UNLESS you mean it, cause it isnt the first time you have said it

 

[kirkgas]

kirkgas like ive said above i rung gas safe about it and my bg mate used to say cos he was the last in my house he was going to have to disconnect my hob cos no vent and he be liable if i poped it, untill regs changed due to the amount of people with conservatories fitted already with gas hobs

gas safe said any room above 10 sq meters with openable window or door ,vent not needed weather its changed again i dont think so cos was talking to my bg mate about it on sunday

do me a favour and re-check with GSR on this point and confirm you mean a room with a door and window that now doesnt open to outside, TBH doors can go anywhere, but when someone says the room has an openable window i think it is fair to say we mean openable to outside, all the paperwork i have, TB's, training notes, updated BS docs show an openable window or equivalent is required, nothing shows that the regs have changed now to discount this, so if i am wrong i need to redo what i am doing (more than happy to change if i need updated as most of us are)

 

[kirkgas]

kirkgas like ive said above i rung gas safe about it and my bg mate used to say cos he was the last in my house he was going to have to disconnect my hob cos no vent and he be liable if i poped it, untill regs changed due to the amount of people with conservatories fitted already with gas hobs

gas safe said any room above 10 sq meters with openable window or door ,vent not needed weather its changed again i dont think so cos was talking to my bg mate about it on sunday

can you quote exactly what reg has now changed reducing an ID situation ( as your BG mate MUST disconnect) to a now situation which requires nothing to be done

 

[kirkgas]

Just rung Gas Safe...was told...

(existing installation) If the kitchen volume is grater than 10m3 there is NO need for additional ventilation but will be classed as NCS.

If the kitchen volume is less than 10m3 it is classed as AR...

couple way to rectify this...

1). there needs to be an extractor fan to outside air (can't remember the exact figure...30lts/min i think) .

2). the area of the opening i.e doors/windows from conservatory to outside has to be 1/20th of the combined floor area of the kitchen AND conservatory...also an 80cm2 vent from conservatory to outside.

AND...area of closable opening from kitchen to conservatory has to be 1/20th of the combined floor area of kitchen and conservatory....also a closable 80cm2 vent which has to be 1.7m above floor level from kitchen to conservatory.

well...i think thats it..please let me know if I've made any mistakes..(sorry if i'm just repeating what others are saying) just trying to get it clear in my head

so what is the exact rule if we go to a house tomorrow, over 10m3 with a conservatory built on therefore no window or door to outside and we want to fit a hob, WHAT IS EXACTLY REQUIRED, RE VENTILATION PROVISION? cause i feel this post is running away with itself and some dont seem 100% clear but are happy to batter on regardless

 

[kirkgas]

dave.o at last someone with some sence (besides gasman who no,s what he doin) all that was needed was to ring gas safe like i did and you have, problem solved and as you have and been told the same as me, end of story anyone doing this job no,s ventalation is important and you need vents below 10m3

you are thanking dave for having sense (ie agreeing with you) but i have read your posts and his and i dont think he is agreeing with you, he says you need vents or it is NCS you say GSR told you you dont need vents that isnt the same thing,

 

[kirkgas]

Lol Diamond, I was forever told that it was always down to "engineering judgement" when there was a problem and I was unsure (I was subbying to BG).
The main thing that I was trying to say was when it was the Dogs you couldn't get a straight forward answer off the so called techies so I never bothered phoning. Now its Gas Safe should it be any different? Maybe it is. But one thing I would say, and I dont mean any offense to anyone, but In my opinion calling Gas Safe is always the last port of call. i dont claim to know it all but I do know where to look to try and find it.

the only info/advise i have any faith in is provided in writing, and how many of us have ever had actual advice from CORGI or GSR in writing? i used to be on CORGI's Scottish Installer Forum so met the CORGI guys regularly, when pushed about giving tech advice they openly admitted they will talk all day on the phone but are hesitant to give written advice as they are not always 100% sure that the conversation is exactly describing the situation and in the CYA world they were worried written advice would be used against them in court

 

[diamondgas]

so what is the exact rule if we go to a house tomorrow, over 10m3 with a conservatory built on therefore no window or door to outside and we want to fit a hob, WHAT IS EXACTLY REQUIRED, RE VENTILATION PROVISION? cause i feel this post is running away with itself and some dont seem 100% clear but are happy to batter on regardless

I agree Kirkgas that this post is important and is running off somewhat.

My "take" is that if you can be arsed to do the calculations and there's a double door between the kitchen (metaldust9), conservatory and double door conservatory to outside, with the 80cm2 vents in both then go for it! Otherwise accept that an extractor fan is needed and should do the job requested by building regs!

 

[Dave'o]

Lol Diamond, I was forever told that it was always down to "engineering judgement" when there was a problem and I was unsure (I was subbying to BG).
The main thing that I was trying to say was when it was the Dogs you couldn't get a straight forward answer off the so called techies so I never bothered phoning. Now its Gas Safe should it be any different? Maybe it is. But one thing I would say, and I dont mean any offense to anyone, but In my opinion calling Gas Safe is always the last port of call. i dont claim to know it all but I do know where to look to try and find it.

I happily use Gas Safe tech support as another source of information with a many others..i.e books, british standards, technical bulletins, work colleges, internet ect... unfortunately i can't retain all this (sometimes useless) information and I occasionally have to research a little further. I don't see why any source of information should have priority over others..whatever is more convenient for one.

You remind me a little of my boss/mentor...he's ex BG, 50 yrs time served. He would never admit he knows everything..but rarely admits NOT knowing something..he would just rather uses his "judgement" lol anyway, I think some of you old timers /wink wink are way too proud to ring "Gas Safe" for any advise.. unfortunately us newbies don't have to network of contacts/colleges built over the years and years...and years lol to casually chat (or heated discussion) about issues regarding work...which I find a great way of learning new things.

Well..we all need to start somewhere.

 

[GrahamM]

so what is the exact rule if we go to a house tomorrow, over 10m3 with a conservatory built on therefore no window or door to outside and we want to fit a hob, WHAT IS EXACTLY REQUIRED, RE VENTILATION PROVISION? cause i feel this post is running away with itself and some dont seem 100% clear but are happy to batter on regardless

Ill have a stab at this.
Mechanical extraction to outside: minimum 30L/s above hob or 60L/s elsewhere in room with 15min overrun.
An undercut/gap of at least 7600mm², above floor finish on all internal doors.

 

[Dave'o]

so what is the exact rule if we go to a house tomorrow, over 10m3 with a conservatory built on therefore no window or door to outside and we want to fit a hob, WHAT IS EXACTLY REQUIRED, RE VENTILATION PROVISION? cause i feel this post is running away with itself and some dont seem 100% clear but are happy to batter on regardless

Good point..never thought about that.

Maybe the 10m3 air volume in the kitchen plus the available adventitious air from the conservatory is adequate for the hob/cooker because the tech guy didn't mention anything about an opening to outside.

 

[diamondgas]

I happily use Gas Safe tech support as another source of information with a many others..i.e books, british standards, technical bulletins, work colleges, internet ect... unfortunately i can't retain all this (sometimes useless) information and I occasionally have to research a little further. I don't see why any source of information should have priority over others..whatever is more convenient for one.

You remind me a little of my boss/mentor...he's ex BG, 50 yrs time served. He would never admit he knows everything..but rarely admits NOT knowing something..he would just rather uses his "judgement" lol anyway, I think some of you old timers /wink wink are way too proud to ring "Gas Safe" for any advise.. unfortunately us newbies don't have to network of contacts/colleges built over the years and years...and years lol to casually chat (or heated discussion) about issues regarding work...which I find a great way of learning new things.

Well..we all need to start somewhere.

Well said Dav'o ... You never ever ever strop learning at this game.!... EVER!!!

 

[GrahamM]

i rung gas safe to cover myself just incase no other reason cos there would be a record of the call somewere,its not about being to serious it its about not loosing your badge thought a mistake aving paid out a fortune and someone not poping it thro your mistake,better safe than sorry in my book

I think I will still rather go by what I can see in writing to base any decisions/judgments on. That will give you more protection if there is ever any issue with your decisions.
I don't believe "That is what the guy told me on the phone" will have much sway with the courts if ever you are unfortunate enough to end up there.

 

[kirkgas]

Ill have a stab at this.
Mechanical extraction to outside: minimum 30L/s above hob or 60L/s elsewhere in room with 15min overrun.
An undercut/gap of at least 7600mm², above floor finish on all internal doors.

UNLESS you have a mate who works with BG :confused5:

 

[unguided1]

ref ventilation requirements it all depends if the woman can cook, if any thing like my giant thumb of doom the cremator of salads, you will require a smoke detector and an o2 detector

 

[CES]

I happily use Gas Safe tech support as another source of information with a many others..i.e books, british standards, technical bulletins, work colleges, internet ect... unfortunately i can't retain all this (sometimes useless) information and I occasionally have to research a little further. I don't see why any source of information should have priority over others..whatever is more convenient for one.

You remind me a little of my boss/mentor...he's ex BG, 50 yrs time served. He would never admit he knows everything..but rarely admits NOT knowing something..he would just rather uses his "judgement" lol anyway, I think some of you old timers /wink wink are way too proud to ring "Gas Safe" for any advise.. unfortunately us newbies don't have to network of contacts/colleges built over the years and years...and years lol to casually chat (or heated discussion) about issues regarding work...which I find a great way of learning new things.

Well..we all need to start somewhere.

I didnt mean to come across as being too proud to ring gas safe, Im not, and I truly appreciate that new installers require more information from different sources. In my experience (and Im not exactly old btw! lol) if you tell someone how to do something constantly they will never learn, show them and then let them try it for themselves I find is a better approach. If you're always on the phone to Gas Safe then the chances are you wont retain that piece of info (unless you write it down somewhere or experience the process of finding the answer) - God I sound like my old lecturer at college!
Its like the old chinese proverb "Tell me and Ill forget, Show me and I may remember; Involve me and Ill understand"
Information is valuable and we should all use what is available, in my experience as I mentioned in an earlier post, the technical helpline was never much use to me, but it may have helped lots of others.
The engineering judgement crack was a tongue in cheek dig at a typical BG response when you asked an SM something they didnt know the answer for.

 

[metaldust9]

i used my bg mate in this response because i was talking about it the other day and it was a running joke when he came to ours i really dont think it warrants 5 pages on it ,i use my own judgement and gas people around me who have been doing it yrs, therefore when you give me a long list of rules ,regs and long numbers am not intrested cost unless i read it from a proper book see it for myself or get it from a source like hybrid, where i went, i am not bothered there is some very good advice on here but some just goes to far i am a very relaxed person and dont argue with anyone unless i have double and treble checked something so i can say am right am if am wrong will apoligise but thats not often cos i usually dont open my mouth unless i done it or been told thats how it should be done so end of story till the next arguement

 

[GrahamM]

i used my bg mate in this response because i was talking about it the other day and it was a running joke when he came to ours i really dont think it warrants 5 pages on it ,i use my own judgement and gas people around me who have been doing it yrs, therefore when you give me a long list of rules ,regs and long numbers am not intrested cost unless i read it from a proper book see it for myself or get it from a source like hybrid, where i went, i am not bothered there is some very good advice on here but some just goes to far i am a very relaxed person and dont argue with anyone unless i have double and treble checked something so i can say am right am if am wrong will apoligise but thats not often cos i usually dont open my mouth unless i done it or been told thats how it should be done so end of story till the next arguement

Unfortunately this profession is full of "rules, regs and long numbers" as you put it. How can you be "not interested"?
If you are not interested well maybe this is the wrong game for you. How can you be a safe, competent engineer if you are not interested in the rules & regs?
I do not know it all......but I would like to. That is one of the reasons I get involved here. The vast knowledge of all the contributors combined on this forum probably add up to just about all there is to know about gas work and the regulations that govern it.

Reading, learning and discussing the rules and regulation with like minded people makes me a more knowledgeable, professional and competent Engineer.

You close your last post with "till the next argument". Who is arguing here? As far as I am aware this was a discussion about ventilation requirements for fitting a gas cooker/hob. A point that is quite a complicated issue and one worthy of some in-depth discussion. People put their point across with a number of references given that backs up/confirms such. We can then all learn from it. This is what this place is all about.

 

[Dave'o]

"Tell me and Ill forget, Show me and I may remember; Involve me and Ill understand"

Thats sooo true!:freak:

 

[Puddle]

Are we not forgetting the be civil policy of the forums,please stay on topic and no negative personal remarks about other members,as per forum rules
Thank you

 

[tamz]

:90::furious3: :nono::ban::wink_smile:

lol

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

ref ventilation requirements it all depends if the woman can cook, if any thing like my giant thumb of doom the cremator of salads, you will require a smoke detector and an o2 detector

That's my cooking, the black bits give it some flavour and lack of ventilation means we can stil enjoy that lovely smell in the morning when we prepare to scrape the toast

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

The original question was quite specific and wanted a simple English explanation. Please let me attempt this sorry where I repeat what others have said. And i have tried to answer some other questions in this thread.

In sort the thing you have quoted means you have to have both background and purge ventilation in the kitchen and the conservatory.
The back ground ventilation is a fixed quanity it is 8000mm2 (80cm2) regardless of the size of rooms.
And it must be above head height - at least above my head - at 1.7 m.
The purge vent must be calculated based on the size of the kitchen and conservatory together.

It does mean that the purge vent in conservatory must be to outside.


My source of reference is building Regs Part F so please do check up! http://www.lbhf.gov.uk/Images/Part_F_2006_tcm21-19841.pdf

Apdx B
Purge ventilation means windows and door that open.
For measurement purposes APDX B says in sash windows the 1/20th has to be the measurement of the open space
1/20th of the opening part of a pivot window that pivots 30degrees or more
But if it pivots less than 30 degrees opening part needs to be 1/10th.

MATHS
You know how to work out the floor area. Eg 3x3 kitchen and 3x3 conservatory 18 square metre.
So 1/20th for purge is 18 / 20 = 0.9 m sq
Or 1/10th is 18 / 10 = 1.8 m squ

And it all means in this eg you would need a door or window with at least a 0.9m sq opening from kitchen to conservatory and the same from conservatory to outside. And that if purge ventilation was only just adaquate before the conservatory then it will not be enough after a conservatory is added.

You can have several windows and doors added together to get the right measurement for purge ventilation.

Back ground ventilation generally means trickle ventilation typical in windows, or air brick.

Second source of Reference GSR TB 005(A) which replaced 005 "Gas cookers in Internal Kitchens"
This document states that if the kitchen is 10 cubic metres or more it simply needs have an openable window which complies with the Building Regulations rules above.

So you need to refer to TB005(A) further only if the kitchen is very tiny and/or does not have the ventilation required by current building regs.

What about a Kitchen with No Windows for Purge Ventilation? TB005 (A) states:
Intermittent extract fan above hob 30 l/s
Or
if Located elsewhere in kitchen 60 l/s
It can be manual or automatic.
15 minute over run facility

 

[diamondgas]

:hurray::hurray:Now take a deep breath:hurray: :hurray:

 

[tamz]

Well put over Mrs Tara:yes: