Not paying for a job

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Not paying for a job

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TripleD

Hi All,

I'm on the other end of of this stick, I employed a bathroom fitter/plumber to replace my bathroom completely, paid him a £250 deposit.
It took him about a week on and off (on and off as plasterer, electrician, floor fitter was doing work), a week ago last friday he installed the shower screen and setup the shower.
On Saturday we advised of a leak on the floor, he came back Monday to finish other work and re-sealed the bath, Tuesday morning advised the leak was still there, he came back each day Tuesday - Friday and apparently 'fixed' the leak. It leaked over the weekend, so he came back this monday just gone, and made it a whole lot worse, now instead of a small leak I now have a water fall under the bath!

I have refused to pay him any money, and refused entry. He's had 6 chances to rectify the situation, and from what I can see it's not in the realms of bodging it. Silicone is everywhere including grout lines and slurged up the inside of the bath where it meets the wall from underneath.
He wants to be paid for the parts at least, and I'm refusing. From what I can see the tiles have not been correctly put up, the grout is cracked and tiles move.
I can't trust his work, and now face the bill of getting another trades person in to remove the tiles, and I need to order another £250 worth of tiles to do the job properly.

Am I being too harsh not paying him a penny, or am I well within my rights? There was no intention of not paying him, but with all these problems, and the mounting number of finishing issues I feel it's the only way.
I've already been threatened with ripping the pipe work out and small claims court.

I know most people here are going to be plumbers, and I may get crucified, but I'm asking advice as a consumer.
 
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If you do need evidence of bad workmanship for court, take plenty of photographs at all stages of removal and also get reports from experts (qualified plumbers and other trades).
Courts won't just accept your word
 
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Don't use checkatrade for references, ask your neighbours if they have had any work. Or know anyone. Personal recommendation is always best.
Ask the new guy for examples of his work and contact those customers to confirm!

You won't offend, I get asked for pictures of my work on bathrooms all the time.
 
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Chalked said:
Don't use checkatrade for references, ask your neighbours if they have had any work. Or know anyone. Personal recommendation is always best.
Ask the new guy for examples of his work and contact those customers to confirm!

You won't offend, I get asked for pictures of my work on bathrooms all the time.
Click to expand...

What's wrong with Checkatrade? I'm on I don't bodge things, rip people off leave leaks (or if I do by mistake I sort it)
 
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TripleD said:
There was a leak originally which was why we looked at getting a whole new bathroom. We advised all fitters of this when they came round, and pointed out the issues plus the type of walls they were dealing with.



I didn't check these, how do I find out if they have insurance? or is this only done by contacting them and requesting it?



I have checked this, the job has been registered so I have been told.



I have been looking round for trades today to come in and quote for the remedial work, I have asked them to check all aspects of the plumbing work, separately I have been looking for a tiler via the checkatrade website hopefully they can advise on what needs to be done.



Thank you for your advice, never thought about Buildings Insurance claim, I will see what the cost of the work will come to, and make a decision from their.
What I have put is the truth, I thought this site would be full or trades people that will just back each other, but I wanted to get some advice from proper trades people on which way I should take this, and everyone has given useful advice, and things I hadn't thought of. Ripping out and starting again isn't something I really relish, but if that's how it gets sorted properly, then that's the way it will have to be.

Just hope second time round it will all work out.
Click to expand...

You should receive a form from the electrician which is a self certification form issued by one of the only two bodies in the UK legally authorised to do so. NIECC AND NAPPI. The tradesman has to submit this form to the organisation and a few weeks later you will get a cert from building control. The trade has to give you that paperwork. If they don't you need to report this to building control. They will prosecute.

Ask trades for copies of their insurance. I always supplied one with the estimate, not offended or suspicious if asked. In fact proud to give it, also same for certs of qualifications, references etc etc.

Don't reckon check a trade etc etc. Too easy to fake results imho.

Also imho tilers are tilers. Builders are builders. Word of mouth and personal recommendations are always the best imho. You're local trading standards will have a list of qualified trades. So will building control. Well they do in Hertfordshire anyway.
 
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Sorry to resurrect my thread, but an update on proceedings.
On the 5th Jan I issued a letter to the fitter stating the issues we found, and our intent to withhold payment it was reviewed but other professionals, if the quote for rectification work was under the invoice amount, we would subtract this from the invoice and pay the remainder.

No answer to letter.

We had a family recommended plumber to quote, the shower has all been plumbed incorrectly so warranty is void, pipes not lagged etc. Has quoted for work.
Recommended tiler laughed at pictures of before, said there's 2 choices, Tiler Backer/Aqua panel 12mm put onto wall, and then tiled over or replace wall.
Also have the shower screen manufacturers technician visit to review the shower screen, he noted the amount of silicone, said it had not been fitted correctly, pointed out the thick bead of silicone on the outside was to cover the holes that had been drilled in the tiles where the screen had been incorrectly fitted, and said it's still not fitted correctly.

Total for rectifying work is £1800

Sent follow up letter to fitter stating this, and formally refusing payment. So as not to have this dragging on we have suggested that he can keep the £250 deposit and that is the matter finished with him and allows us to commission the repair work. He has 10 working days to respond of which 5 is over currently. No response as yet.

I did see his van this morning when walking the dog, felt like warning the home owner, but not sure that's my place to do so.
 
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Sounds fair and reasonable - from what you have told us.

You may want to get legal advice to make sure you are acting within the Law.
You may want to get a lawyer to send letters for you.

As for warning the other homeowner about your experiences - don't get involved.
If they ask you, tell them as much as you dare
 
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oz-plumber said:
As for warning the other homeowner about your experiences - don't get involved.
If they ask you, tell them as much as you dare
Click to expand...

True, best keep out of it. I just want my situation sorted.

As for the solicitor, I could but it's all additional cost on my side to do that. Ideally he responds accepting the situation, and the agreement is made. I need to tread carefully after 10 days, but checking with the CAB it's best to make an agreement outside of solicitors.
 
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TripleD said:
As for the solicitor, I could but it's all additional cost on my side to do that. Ideally he responds accepting the situation, and the agreement is made. I need to tread carefully after 10 days, but checking with the CAB it's best to make an agreement outside of solicitors.
Click to expand...

It may be peace of mind for you to have your agreement checked over by a solicitor.

You cannot make an agreement with someone, if that agreement is outside the realms of the Law.
If the Plumber has had your agreement check over by a solicitor, and his solicitor deems it to be outside the Law, you could end up in deep and expensive trouble.

The Law doesn't care about your situation - it only cares about the Law.
If you breach the Law - then the Law will come after you.

I was told that by an ex-judge whom I was working for.
 
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You already have an agreement/contract with the original fitter. What you are seeking is to conclude that agreement by "mutual consent". Having set on record the defects all future correspondence towards settlement should be headed, "WITHOUT PREJUDICE". Be aware that an offer made, without prejudice, if accepted becomes binding.
 
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As there has been no response and no communication to date, I doubt I will get anything in writing accepting the terms. This is why I stated

"We will give you 10 working days from the date of this letter to dispute this offer. Should we not received a formal response to our letters we will take this that you have accepted this offer and the matter will not be taken any further."

Which I'm hoping allows us to finally get this mess sorted! Otherwise with no responses it could drag on for months worth of uncertainty.
 
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What it would come down to is who breached contract first, you for withholding payment or the plumber for not fulfilling the work he was contracted to do. Docs titled Without Prejudice cannot be used as evidence in legal proceedings, nothing to do with contract law. See http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Without+Prejudice. What you are looking at is a Tort. See http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=2137

You have given your contractor 10 days to reply. Hopefully you worded the letter in such a way that failure to reply within the period would signal agreement? Hopefully you sent it recorded delivery? And you discharged his services in writing stating the reasons? I agree with Oz, spend £100 max and get a lawyer to give it the once over.
 
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It wasn't sent recorded as his house is 5 minutes walk from mine, so was hand delivered.
Noted about lawyer once over.
It is worded that if there is no response that it would signal acceptance to the offer, and the matter is finalized.

I do find it strange that after the threat of taking me to small claims court, I have heard no more from him.
 
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Unfortunately You have no physical proof that he has received it only your word that it was put through the door. I am not at all surprised at his lack of response. We have had court cases where the debtor has not turned up to defend his case. What I would do is wait out the 10 days, then on day 11 send him a letter, recorded delivery, stating that in accordance with your offer dated xx copy included, his lack of response means that he accepts your offer in Full and Final Settlement, and you will now proceed to engage contractors to carry out rectification.
My guess is that he is glad to was his hands of it. In my opinion he's got off lightly as similar cases have actually bankrupted self employed trades with no liability insurance. I take it he had no insurance? If he had you could have claimed the job plus damages.
Next time make sure you get trades with insurance and if in doubt there is always https://www.suffolk.gov.uk/communit...-consumers/what-is-the-suffolk-trader-scheme/
 
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Radioman said:
Unfortunately You have no physical proof that he has received it only your word that it was put through the door. I am not at all surprised at his lack of response. We have had court cases where the debtor has not turned up to defend his case. What I would do is wait out the 10 days, then on day 11 send him a letter, recorded delivery, stating that in accordance with your offer dated xx copy included, his lack of response means that he accepts your offer in Full and Final Settlement, and you will now proceed to engage contractors to carry out rectification.
My guess is that he is glad to was his hands of it. In my opinion he's got off lightly as similar cases have actually bankrupted self employed trades with no liability insurance. I take it he had no insurance? If he had you could have claimed the job plus damages.
Next time make sure you get trades with insurance and if in doubt there is always https://www.suffolk.gov.uk/communit...-consumers/what-is-the-suffolk-trader-scheme/
Click to expand...

Much appreciated, I will follow up as you suggested with Recorded delivery, makes sense.
As for insurance, I've not seen anything, he's not responded at the request, I would assume not.
 
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Sending first class post with proof of posting will suffice. Court will assume letter delivered in normal postal times, and signature not required.
This is not Tort it is contract law. Without prejudice is a device by which parties can negotiate a settlement without compromising their position should the case go to court. For example:- an offer of £*** without prejudice, will be ignored, whereas the same offer in open correspondence could be seen as an admission.
 
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Not what you originally said, but never mind. A Tort is the action by which you claim damages in a civil action. The damage may be physical, mental or financial, to person or property. Typically recompense for the damage done to this persons property by this tradesmen.
 
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Contact Law includes a duty of care, and also a duty to warn, " Lindenberg - Canning 1992".
Negligence in this case is less clear if neither party was aware of the stramit.
 
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Sales reps know every trick in the book lol

More knowlege than a barrister.
More tricks than a used car salesman.
And when things get nasty 'get to the chopper'
 
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I don't think if photographic evidence of the work together with evidence of repeat attempts of repairs plus all contact letters and lack of response from the installer was all put in front of a small claims court county judge, there would be any chance of having to pay the installer.
Judge would only rule the materials that are useable should be paid for.
All labour completed must be paid for by law, but not if workmanship very shoddy.
I wouldn't worry in the slightest if I was the OP. Just be careful to gather evidence and show in all correspondence that you are trying your best to be fair and reasonable and resolve it.
You don't need a solicitor if you are a sensible person and behave in a decent way, but you could stay with free advice or small fee from solicitors where you can get it.
I should add that it would be advisable to have expert witnesses if it goes to court, - qualified plumber, tiler, builder, etc. Really shoddy looking work will be obvious to a judge, but some alleged bad workmanship may not be accepted by the customers word only, unless a person qualified in that job can give expert opinion of what exactly is wrong.
 
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I don't have time to read all this again but I think the plumber has just written off the money you owe him, from his point of view he's probably happy to get you off his back.
 
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