Joints under screed, ok to do?

[webby252]

First of all apologies if this doesn't make complete sense as I know next to nothing about plumbing.
I am having a house built and the plumber has installed all of his pipes prior to the screed being laid on the ground floor. The screed will completely cover a number of pipes.
When the company arrived to fit the underfloor heating loops (prior to the screed being laid) they pointed out that in one room there was a pipe (hot & cold) with several joins which would be completely covered with screed.
They suggested it made more sense to do a pipe run with no joints underneath the Kingspan insulation, therefore eliminating the issue of these joints failing in the future as there are no joints.
The problem I had was that this needed doing that day, before they completed laying the underfloor heating as the screed was being poured the foillowing day. There was no time to contact the plumber and ask him to recitify it.
So my question is, were they right in what they said? Did the plumber make a mistake and am I correct in asking for the fee (£50) to be knocked off my final bill?

£50 is not a lot I appreciate that but it is just a bit disappointing that if what they're saying is correct this could have been avoided and if a joint did fail it could have cost me a lot of monoey to pull the kitchen tiles up, the floor boards and the screed to identify the problem.

Below is a pictur eof part of one of the pipes that was replaced. Each pipe (there were 2) had 3 of the joints that you can see which would have been covered in screed.

 

[Simon F]

Hello webby and :welcome:

the most likely failure point in any system is in a joint, so it is best to avoid joints wherever access is restricted.

 

[SimonG]

Was there anything laid under the pipes before screed was laid?

You have more issues than just joints. The hep will move under the screed and wear through on those sharp stones. Where's the insulation if it's below the kingspan?

 

[webby252]

Was there anything laid under the pipes before screed was laid?

You have more issues than just joints. The hep will move under the screed and wear through on those sharp stones. Where's the insulation if it's below the kingspan?

Hi Stephen,
The kingspan insulation sits on top of a concrete slab, the water pipes are now under (groove cut in it) the kingspan on top of the concrete if that makes sense. The underfloor heating pipes sit on top of the kinspan encased in a screed mix.

 

[Best]

Normally you would expect there to be a sub floor for strength, made of concrete & the Kingspan next & screed on top. The sub floor should have been brushed clean & the pipes with heavy pipe insulation on them, then fitted. Obviously no joints if possible. You can get a pipe in pipe for under solid floors.
An ideal way to fit pipes (not underfloor heating pipes) in solid floors would be one layer of Kingspan first on sub floor & pipes on top & then further layers Kingspan fitted near to pipes & covering entire area.

 

[snowhead]

Was there anything laid under the pipes before screed was laid?

You have more issues than just joints. The hep will move under the screed and wear through on those sharp stones. Where's the insulation if it's below the kingspan?

I think the pic was taken after the pipes were removed probably taken outside on the driveway.

If there not, there's going to be trouble in the future.

 

[Mike Jackson]

The pipes shouldn't have been laid directly in the screed anyway. They should have been laid in conduit or ducted to allow for future replacement. This is in Breach of the Water Regulations Schedule 2 paragraph 7 (1) No water fitting shall be embedded in any wall or solid floor.

 

[AWheating]

firstly id like to say that its really hard for us to criticise/pass comment on somebody elses work without nowing the full ins and out of the job and situation. So with this in mind take any advice or comments at the value they are given.

Normally i would be looking to use the pipe in pipe method when using pushfit in a screeded floor, its more expensive tho. I would not like to fit any fittings that would be sealed into the screeded floor as the potential for future problems would be greater aswell as the cost of fixing any problems.

I would advise talking to your plumber about such problems face to face, its not really reasonable to expect him/her to be happy about any deductions you make to payments without discussing the matter and giving the person a chance to answer your questions or possible alter the work to your requirements first. Its also not unreasonable for you to ask some questions and expect the work to be done as required. Most problems that occur between a tradesperson and the customer start with poor communication.

 

[webby252]

Hi AWheating,
Seems like a sensible approach.
Thanks for everyones comments, some stuff to think about there.
Incidentalyl the picture was taken on the drive after the pipes had been removed.
Thanks once again

 

[chris watkins]

firstly id like to say that its really hard for us to criticise/pass comment on somebody elses work without nowing the full ins and out of the job and situation. So with this in mind take any advice or comments at the value they are given.

Normally i would be looking to use the pipe in pipe method when using pushfit in a screeded floor, its more expensive tho. I would not like to fit any fittings that would be sealed into the screeded floor as the potential for future problems would be greater aswell as the cost of fixing any problems.

I would advise talking to your plumber about such problems face to face, its not really reasonable to expect him/her to be happy about any deductions you make to payments without discussing the matter and giving the person a chance to answer your questions or possible alter the work to your requirements first. Its also not unreasonable for you to ask some questions and expect the work to be done as required. Most problems that occur between a tradesperson and the customer start with poor communication.

You are of course quite right Mr Wheating but it would be nice to know just how much this so called plumber was being paid in the first place & how Mr webby came to acquire there services don't you think ?? bet they were not the most expensive company, a !!!

 

[jase158]

IMO i would be grateful that the other person gave you the great advice and accept the £50 extra and perhaps use another plumber next time. he hasn't done it right as said before, there shouldn't be fittings in the screed unless absolutley essential.

which it wasnt as they were able to change it.

But this is only my opinion

 

[Mike Jackson]

There shouldn't be fittings in the screed ever. If there is no option but to have fittings in a floor they must be accessible which means in ducting or some sort of junction box. Does nobody bother complying with the water regulations?

 

[mfgs]

I like how you keep quoting the water regs after you have done the exam recently lol, always good when its fresh in your mind.

 

[Mike Jackson]

I like quoting regs, makes it seem like I know what I'm talking about.

I used to do a lot of inspection work and when you're writing reports you have to quote what regs are being breached etc. all the time and I can't get out of the habit. I've got worse since I went back self employed and signed up to the standards subscription through Gas safe. So many regs and BS to quote from.

 

[mfgs]

Yeah its good mate especially in aswer to a technical question so people can cross reference and check out the exact wording etc for themself. I would like to be able to do the same.