Ahhh is there an M&E plumbing contractor in North East that can help me

[n141311]

hi all,

I know this is a long shot but I'm wondering if there are any M&E contractors who specialise in plumbing that can help me. I think my plumber has messed up the plumbing for my property by using the wrong pipe size

BACKGROUND & DESIGN CHALLENGE

I've got an 8 bedroom, 8 bath property that I'm refurbishing and want to have piping hot, high pressure showers in the ensuites with a system that can accommodate all showers being used at same time during peak periods. As the property will be used as a boutique luxury hotel - these design requirements are a must.

The property is split into three sections with the boiler being located in the centre - with 4 bedrooms on one section of the house, and another 4 bedrooms on the other section of the house.

I had Bosch do me a system design to meet this design challenge and they proposed an unvented system comprising:

• 2 x Greenstore cylinders 300l
• Worcester GB162 50kw boiler
• Salamander home boost pump
• 28mm piping branching into 22mm
• No point double coiling

The inputs they were given along with layout designs were:

• -!Current standing pressure is 4.2 bar
• - Over 22 litres per minute flow rate on cold
• - At 4bar pressure, shower will deliver 17 litres of water per minute
• - 8 thermostatic showers to be installed at the property and used during peak periods
• - 8 size heated towel rails (to come on at same time as radiators) - 1,119 BTU per radiator
• - 15 radiators - average 3,500 BTU per radiator
• Property is split into two sections with the boiler being located in the centre: section 1 will have 4 bathrooms section 2 will have 4 bathrooms

• - During peak times (mornings) 8 showers will be used simultaneously!
• - Heating will be on 8hrs a day, 7 days a week during the winter
• - Heating will be on 3hrs a day, 7 days a week during the summer

WHAT HAPPENED NEXT

I had work start on section A of the building comprising 4 bedrooms and bathrooms. The plumber re-did all of the pipework for radiators, hot and cold feeds for showers and basins....except he decided to use 22mm pipework branching off into 15mm instead of follow Bosch' guidelines.

I am now worried about the impact this deviation will have - will it still be able to meet the design challenge or does it make no difference?

I did some back of the envelope calcs and wondered if someone can:

a) help me validate if my back of the envelope calcs / assumptions / conclusions are correct? I am not an engineer or plumber.

b) suggest if there's a possible fix to still ensure I can meet the design challenge for the rooms that have already been piped up (luckily they are positioned close-ish to the boiler)

I have a CAD version of the property layout as well las technical docs for all of the proposed equipment to go in.

MY BACK OF THE ENVELOPE CALCS & ASSUMPTIONS

Grohe Grohtherm Cube Perfect Shower Set - 34506000

• Assuming 11.5 litres per minute flow rate per shower
• Ave shower time will be 20mins
• Assuming 8 showers during peak times, that’s 92 litres per minute required

• 22mm pipe has flow rate of 0.6 litres per second // 36 litres per minute
• 28mm pipe has flow rate of 1.1 litres per second // 66 litres per minute

Assuming there will be a feed for section A of the property covering 4 bathrooms and another feed for section B covering bathrooms, this means max flow rate required will be 11.5 litres per minute * 4 showers = 46litres per minute needed from each main feed

Conclusion 1. 28mm piping should be used to meet the 46 litres per minute (22mm would be restrictive at max flow of 36)

However, there is also the issue of ensuring the cylinders themselves can supply enough water given peak time demand and then push it through at appropriate flow rate to avoid loss of pressure. To aid this, the spec indicated 2 x greenstore unvented cylinders at 300l each.

• Greenstore SC300 can re-heat 300l of water in 24 mins = 12.5 litres a minute
• At 2 cylinders in tandem, this means a re-heat capacity of 25 litres per minute

• Going back to design challenge of 8 showers on at same time during peak periods:
• 600 litre total capacity would be used up in 6.5mins (600 litres / 92 litres per min)
• But in those 6.5 mins, the cylinders would reheat 163 litres of water (25 litres per min reheat capacity * 6.5 mins) = 1.7 mins
• Total shower time at max demand: 8.2 minutes (6.5 mins from 600 litre capacity + 1.7 mins from reheat capacity)

Conclusion 2. while this doesn't quite meet the 20 mins at 100% utilisation, I think Bosch' proposed 2 cylinders is quite balanced because not everyone will shower for 20mins and it's unlikely that all 8 showers will be used at exactly the same time for exactly the same duration. If one or two people did find cold showers, total reheat time is quite healthy at 25l per minute - essentially covering 2 showers at 11.5 litres per minute flow rate.

CAVEATS & IMPORTANT NOTES

I know I've totally neglected pipe runs and the number of bends. I have layout drawings and a CAD version of layout that I can share if necessary.[/LIST]

 

[n141311]

Sounds cheap on both labour and materials

Boilers alone and bits would come to 3-4K

Unless you have all the bathroom stuff ?

Yeah it doesn't include fitting any of the showers or bathroom units. Literally just getting the stated equipment (boilers, cylinders) installed and commissioned.

Fitting the rads, basins, toilets and showers / tiling etc will be extra.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Sounds ok if it's just for the heating works

 

[n141311]

Sounds ok if it's just for the heating works

thanks mate

 

[ShaunCorbs]

thanks mate

Don't know if it's in the spec but you will require a secondary return circuit and pump (hot water)

 

[n141311]

Don't know if it's in the spec but you will require a secondary return circuit and pump (hot water)

Yeah that's part of the quote. Secondary return and the Magna3 pump.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yeah that's part of the quote. Secondary return and the Magna3 pump.

Ok just make sure it's lagged/ insulated good

Before you put the floors back

 

[oz-plumber]

We've done quite a few commercial type installations with Rinnai equipment.

Why don't you get them to size the equipment for you.
We've done them with banks of Rinnai's or Rinnai's bolted onto their cylinders.

What you want is recovery rate so I would go for something like 1 cylinder with 2 Rinnai units connected to it. The recovery rate of something like that would almost be instant. The Rinnai's only heat the cylinder water via pump(s) operated by the tank stat.
Never ever had a issue with anything they have sized or designed.

Give them a try

 

[ShaunCorbs]

how you getting on op?