Pressure Test Q's

[Maitri]

Hi I have a bit of a contd saga and I am very appreciative of the help I have been offered on this forum. I live in a new build 2 1/2 years old plumbing across the estate has been a disaster. Builder had to re-plumb the first house sold on the estate because there was a leak that his new plumber (old plumber left the job in the middle of the build because he hadn't been paid he cut radiators off walls etc), said he couldn't find therefore it was "cheaper and easier to re-plumb" !! As we all have the same plumbing / heating this is, to say the least, somewhat worrying especially when we have all had endless plumbing /heating problems. Anyway my question is, I have been told that the system was never pressure tested before it was hooked up to the supply and the ceilings and floors were already finished !! When the system (that is across the estate) was hooked up it leaked like a sieve. Having pushed the NHBC hard they have agreed to come in and pressure test the central heating (not the plumbing as a whole). They have told the builder to fix leaks in radiators and then get a 'specialist' in to pressure test the heating system. My questions are:
1. what is defined as a 'specialist' in relation to pressure testing ?

2. what will this prove? The house that was re-plumbed was losing pressure in their boiler and the plumber could not track a leak. We have Chinese Ginde Pert-al-Pert pipe (plastic /aluminium / plastic) can this pipe drip from any joint below floor level without ever really showing any signs of leaking beyond boiler pressure dropping? There is no access to joints and builders new plumber said he had no idea where the joints were and couldn't even make sense of the way the pipes run which it why it was easier to re-plumb. I guess what I am trying to say is that if a pressure test was done, unless there was a very obvious BURST could the pressure test cause a leak that wouldn't be detectable immediately ? I am also worried about pipes bursting, is that a possibility, fittings flying off etc ? I wonder who would then be liable for the repair, I have oak floors fitted.

3. The builder now has to try and repair leaking radiators but how? Last year he attemped to repair leaks (the Ginde pipe below floor level is connected to the radiators using Ginde pipe not copper). We know the plumber pulled up excess pipe last year and attempted to re-fit, but the radiatores are leaking again. The radiators where he could not pull up pipe he fitted 3 different bits of pipe including a bit of copper (I'll try to attach pics) and it looks REALLY REALLY ugly. So what are the builders/plumbers options in repairing the radiators?

4. how much more work would it be for the 'specialist' to pressure test the plumbing whilst he is here? Again what happens if there are leaks and the joints below floor level are not accessible or even traceable!?

5. When Wessex Water called they said that WRAS Regulations state that all joints below floor level should be accessible and spoke about 'manifolds'. Obviously the joints not being accessible led to the builder having to re-plumb the property (obviously something everyone on the estate is not happy about having to accept responsiblity for), have we got a case against the builder if joints are not accessible? Our insurer Domestic & General said they would not offer insurance on plumbing that is not easily accessible.

6. Part of my contd saga relates to a boiler that D&G refused to repair and told me to return to the builder, as they believed it had not been commissioned from new as the hot water heat exchange was full of swarf and sludge. The boiler was just over 2 years old at the time. Is it possible for a 2 year old boiler to contd to work that long if it had not been commissioned from new? If the problem was not due to lack of commissioning then what else could have caused the swarf and sludge build up in a NEW system in a new build in 2 years? (No Benchmark but we are 2nd buyers. However, at least 3 other people (1st buyers) on the estate haven't got Benchmark Certificates)

7. can the repairs to the leaking radiators and the pressure test be carried out when the boiler is not working? Would the 'specialist' called to pressure test the heating system be qualified to check the contents of the main heat exchange and offer an opinion on the likely cause of the swarf and sludge? I assume if the hot water heat exchange was "chock-a-block with swarf and sludge" according to D&G's engineer the main heat exchange will be also? How difficult is it to get the main heat exchange out?

Sorry a lot of Q's but I am trying to work out what to do next thanks

(Re picture of the dripping pipe under the bath. This was the 3rd leak we have had in this bathroom (leaks in others too), this pipe dripped 2 1/2 litres of water a day for weeks and then just stopped. Any ideas why that would have happened. Clearly plumbing not right but why would it leak for weeks and then stop? And another Q I was going to ask. Shortly after D&G engineer had been boiler started to leak water all over the kitchen side. Boiler leaked for about a week then presumably it was empty. (We have not had hot water or heating since January ). Could the boiler have been damaged / rusted just sitting there all this time? Thanks)

 

[Maitri]

Hi Tamz / Gray and A Wheating thanks for your responses. Iso valves don’t sound like a great idea and I am wondering why the plumber felt a need to use them? The guy that did the re-fitting last year wasn’t the builders plumber that fitted this awful system, he was a reputable plumber, so what was his thinking I wonder. I am at my wits end with this…I really don’t want this bodge but it’s hard to see what else. If work is being done on a system to bring it up to Regulation standards I wonder if Building Control / Water Regulator (?) would give me an opinion on the way this is being addressed even if the NHBC did the original Building Control, what do you think? I know it means taking floors up but that really isn’t my problem, this system is bodged, if I get any leaks below floor level I have to re-plumb because nobody knows where the joints are, no manifold, no access hatch or anything, which is why the builder had to re-plumb one of the houses in the first 6 months! I have a letter from the Water Regulator saying this system breaches Regulation 4, paragraph 7. My boiler, the heating system has stood now for 8 months not functioning, the boiler sprang a leaks and emptied all the water out of it 8 months ago. I have no idea what damage has been done to the system because it was never commissioned, and what damage has been done as a consequence of what has happened the past 8 months. I have no ensuite loo because I can’t turn the bath tap on in the bathroom 2 rooms away without the loo starting to flush continually, and there is nobody I can turn to to sort this , it seems astounding! I can’t even get insurance on the system because it never met Regulations and it is obvious it never met Regulations! I am exhausted and cry a lot of the time…

 

[Gray0689]

I feel so sorry for you that someone would sell a house that has so many problems I personally think you have really 2 options 1 is take NHBC to court and hope you win but going to cost you
or other option is to get a decent plumber in to re do your house at your own cost I'm afraid
If your insurance is out of the question

 

[Maitri]

Regulations

Continuing the continuing saga ....I have been speaking with a solicitor about the possibility of sueing the builder for negligence but that is for compensation for loss not to get the work done of course that would be too sensible as far as the law is concerned. So I would be sueing to get the cost of a new plumbing system one that I can get insured. My trump card in this as far as I am concerned is a letter from Wessex Water saying that the current system would not have met: The Water Supply (Water Fittings) Regulations 1999 specifically Regulation 4, paragraph 7, Requirements for water fittings. When Wessex water visited the property the first thing they looked for was a manifold and then looked for an access trap (we have neither) they said joints should be accessible. This is why one of the properties had to be re-plumbed because the plumber could not track a leak below floor level as he did not know where the joints were, he said the system made no sense whatsoever he couldn’t work out which way the pipes had been laid or where the joints were! We haven’t got concrete floors we have got a suspended floor on concrete joists with the pipework just below the chipboard I believe, you can feel the wamth of the pipe through the floor (when I had warm pipes of course!!)


So my Q is how many systems do have joints accessible?
How many plumbers comply to Regulation 4 para 7?
My concern is will a plumbing expert agree with Wessex Water that the system did not meet Regulations regarding access to joints?

This is the big stumbling point for me with regard to accepting NHBC Resolution is that I will be left with a system that a leak below floor level will possibly result in the need for a replumb based on the builder already having had to re-plumb a property.

From an insurance point of view, I can't get my system insured if there is a pre-existing design fault, with inaccessible joints being seen as a a design fault and the dreadful fittings on all the pipes being seen as fundamentally not meeting Regulations! My other Q is, I have said to the builder that if, after his plumber has added all the horrible fittings to my pipes and pressure tested the system will he sign it off as meeting Regulation standards? If he does then I will have no problem with the insurers, but can his plumber sign off a system with hidden joints and crappy fittings to all the radiator pipework as meeting standards?

When I was speaking to the solicitor today, he seemed to be of the belief that ALL work plumbers do should be signed off as meeting Regulations, is he right?

Thanks

 

[fagsanbooz]

well not 'all plumbing work' has to be 'notified' to building control or a competence persons scheme, only if the work actually falls under any part of the building regs, but quite a bit does require notification and that is probably where the NHBC comes in.
Bathrooms, boilers, water heaters, cylinders, controls, soil stacks & vents, drains, electrics and a few other items are some of the items that require 'notofication'.
As far as the 'water regs' goes, not a great deal in domestic properties has to be notified to them, but I am sure that a brand new property does (because it needs a new mains supply and a meter) but i will check and get back. When you say the plumber 'signs off' the work, that means he/she or the company has the neccessary qualifications and belongs to a competent persons scheme or similar. I havent read all the previous posts but what certificates have you got from NHBC?

 

[Maitri]

Hi so the plumber does not have to work to regulations for changing fittings to a radiator then ? This is our concern, not only do the fittings look ugly but there is absolutely no guarantee they will work. We have no certs from NHBC , NHBC have repeatedly said they don't have any, indeed we have a letter from them stating that the Warranty does not guarantee a property will meet standards!!

 

[dontknowitall]

I've not read the detail of this thread and I appreciate you're having difficulties with the plumbing aspect of this build.

The fittings are probably ugly because they're cheap. You gets what you pay for. I'm not trying to say the plumber has done a good or poor job and the budget he had to work with we will never know.

However, as I understand things, your contract and contact is with the NHBC and/or the seller and not the individual tradesmen who've built the house.

It's never enjoyable reading of less than satisfactory occurences (speling?) and I hope you get a quick and helpful outcome. One thing you might bear in mind is that solicitors make money by charging for time (I've learned from past experience to my cost). I think it's a red herring when they are trying to persue the individual tradesmen and not go for the jugular (ie developer), so they earn from this red herring.

 

[fagsanbooz]

Hi so the plumber does not have to work to regulations for changing fittings to a radiator then ? This is our concern, not only do the fittings look ugly but there is absolutely no guarantee they will work. We have no certs from NHBC , NHBC have repeatedly said they don't have any, indeed we have a letter from them stating that the Warranty does not guarantee a property will meet standards!!

The certs I was referring to were the 'competence persons certs' confirming that the work was completed in compliance with building regs (Part L, Part H, Part P, etc) that a householder should receive when work has been completed.Maybe NHBC are exempt, would be interested to know if a property 'signed off' by NHBC does not require either; Notification to local building control or notification to competent persons provider?
Do you have anything to say the installation complies with various building regs?

 

[tamz]

There is no regulation 4 paragraph 7 in the water regs. (reg 4 stops at para 6)

With regards to accessibility, it could be argued that a wooden floor is always readily accessible, trap doors or not. It is the floor covering that makes it less desirable to access It would take less than a minute to cut a hole in it.
Nearly every house in Britain has pipes and joints under wooden floors. It is the way things are and were done. Sometimes accessing these joints is a bit of a nightmare because of the covering especially these days with hardwood and tiles and god forbid laminate.
However it is good practice - but certainly not a requirement - with plastic systems to install a manifold system with the manifold in a central accessible position and no joints from manifold to the appliance or whatever.

There is also no regulation as to the number or types of fittings an a piece of pipe other than they are of an approved standard.

If the builder used an approved plumbing contractor he would have given a certificate of compliance which basically said his work or installation complies with the water regs.
If the plumber was not an approved contractor, the water authority would have been notified of the work being carried out - they are on new build anyway - and it would have been up to them to inspect at regular intervals to see the work was complying. It very rarely happens tho and if it does they are not much interested in heating systems. Usually only the domestic supplies (hot and cold).

 

[Maitri]

Building Control came through NHBC and NHBC say they have no certs so nothing to say installation complies as NHBC say that the Warranty does not mean the property WILL meet Regulations! I know it's hard to believe but we have been trying to get this addressed for 9 months and simply can't believe that nobody is there to ensure ANYTHING meets Regulations or that the builder will bring a property up to standards. All the Phase 1 properties have been effected by the faulty plumbing and 2 of the Phase 1 properties are still not sold (with similar flooding due to faulty plumbing) but NHBC say it's fine for the builder to sell them with KNOWN plumbing problems! That is when they wrote and said that the Warranty does not mean the property meets Regulations.

 

[Maitri]

I am really confused I have looked high and low for my Water Regulations because I know when Wessex Water sent the letter to me with a copy of Regs I did find Reg 4 Para 7 . Their letter said: the pipe-work within the floor and behind bath panel would not have passed compliance of the water regulations as they would not have been accessible according to Regulation 4, paragraph 7, Requirements for Water Fittings. Ah OK Schedule 2: The Water Supply (Water Fittings) Regulations 1999

Is this the one then:
No fitting which is designed to be operated or maintained, whether manually or electronically, or which consists of a joint, shall be a concealed water fitting.

 

[tamz]

Is this the one then:
No fitting which is designed to be operated or maintained, whether manually or electronically, or which consists of a joint, shall be a concealed water fitting.

No. That one applies to valves etc.

 

[sheff paul]

The pipe in question is very good if fitted correctly,used Rehau crimp fit in Australia which is similar to this and very good and desingned to be chased into walls,once tested it can carry massive pressure and never leak,but never used compression fittings on it,to get onto copper they have adapters one end crimp the other brazed,i think this has been modified for uk plumbing the inserts are either missing or the wrong size.The UK is one of the few countries with exposed pipes under baths,basins etc.Most countries have '' mini stop valves'' fitted on the walls supplying basins,toilets with flexis.I would call the rep out who supplies this pipe and get his opinion.. Most builders are a waste of space

 

[Maitri]

So does anyone know which part of the above Water Supply (Water Fittings) Regulations 1999 Wessex water would have been referring to when they came to my house and said the joints should be accessible? Or did they not know what they were talking about? If nobody knows where the joints are if I have a leak below floor level how will anyone be able to know where to access it without sawing up the whole floor? I am just trying to work out why the builder and his new plumber (not the one that did the original plumbing here) said that they had to re-plumb No 43 because he couldn't track a leak below floor level. Thanks

 

[Maitri]

The saga continues! After 9 months without hot water /heating we finally had the system flushed in December...last week lost hot water again, this is where this all began a year ago. Plumber came out last week and said that the people who had flushed the system obviously didn't flush the hot water part of the boiler only the heating part, so the hot water heat exchange was still full of black bits. Today heating /hot water went again! OK so Q. When the plumber was here today I took out a bit of the Ginde pert-al-pert pipe to show him and I put my finger inside and it came out black. This was a bit of pipe that had been attached to a radiator valve, the plumber had cut it off when he was re-fitting the pipe that was leaking. What would be the cause of the black sooty substance inside the pipe. The pipe is plastic with an aluminium core. The plumber last week and today...looking at the contents of the hot water heat exchange black dust and iron filings (last year the plumber had flushed out black gunge and metal filings) said they wouldn't expect to see that in a 10 year old system. If the system however, had not been commissioned I assume this would be normal would it? The plumber today said he thought there was some kind of problem with the pipe that was setting up a reaction...does anyone have any ideas thanks?

 

[fagsanbooz]

I think 'carbon deposits' are a classic case of 'corrosion' within a heating system, seen it a few times before, flaky, ash like substance!!

 

[Howsie]

Sounds like no cleaner then inhibitor to me.