Sorry To Bring Up TRV's Again

[Jaymc]

Hello,

Still trawling through the web trying to educate myself!

I'll keep it simple

Q, Do I need TRV's and where?
Q, Whch manufacturer?
Q, Any suggestions for online purchase, or anywhere near Chester?

As with most things these days, I've seen arguments for and against

Cheers

Jay

 

[Jaymc]

Hi Masood,

I have had 4 quotes up to this point ranging from £1800 - £3850 all pretty much for the same work, and thus far I'm not getting a good feel for any of them. Which is pretty much what I was expecting. I've got 3 further quotes next week, one being British Gas.
I'm trying to ascertain what I need, and asking relevant questions so I'm armed with the right information so I can weed out the good from the bad.
I'm quite capable of doing most of the work, but wouldn't touch the boiler, I can deal with water leaks, but not Gas!
If anything this post has shown the difficulties I'm encountering as their are differing opinions amongst yourselves.

Tomorrow I'll be going to several local merchants and try and negotiate some prices. I was asking for Internet sites so I can read the details and make an informed decision on the items I want fitted.

All help and information received gratefuly, and it's interesting hearing different ideas.

Jay

 

[Nostrum]

Out of interest Jaymc, what are you looking for from your 7 quotes?

What would it be that swayed you towards one from another and why? Genuinely interested as you seem to be quite particular (no offense) and where are you based?

oh and what work are you having (maybe) done?

 

[Jaymc]

I'm going to open a can of worms here because I'm bored, halfway through a bottle of red and it's Friday.

The approved documents are for guidance and not compulsory unless the contents is highlighted in green.

If we're spouting regulation, ie enforceable in a court, you'll need to ensure you comply with this for existing dwellings:


L1. Reasonable provision shall be made for the conservation of fuel and power in buildings by:
(a) limiting heat gains and losses—
(i) through thermal elements and other parts of the building fabric; and
(ii) from pipes, ducts and vessels used for space heating, space cooling and hot water services;
(b) providing fixed building services which—
(i) are energy efficient;
(ii) have effective controls; and
(iii) are commissioned by testing and adjusting as necessary to ensure they use no more fuel and power than is reasonable in the circumstances; and
Regulation 40 providing to the owner sufficient information about the building, the fixed building services and their maintenance requirements so that the building can be operated in such a manner as to use no more fuel and power than is reasonable in the circumstances.

:wheelchair:

In an ideal world we'd have no TRVs, well sized radiators, weather comp with a heat curve matched to the building and a suitably sized boiler to the buildings heat losses. TRVs reduce water volume volume through boiler which doesn't help with short cycling and minimum run times.

But instead we opt for 40kw combis for "good hot water flow"

Anyway I'm going off topic and no one cares about all that.

Yeepeee

I care LOL. A lad who works for me, has a brother who is a plumber in Poland, and he mentioned pretty much your last paragraph as being the norm over there! We were discussing it, as he was buying a weather compensator for his Vaillant, which I'll be asking about next...........

 

[Nostrum]

We've created a market where cost and speed come before design and basic scientific principles. We will struggle to get out of that mindset now in the common market, so we invent things to combat the problems it causes! Bizarre really. :crazy:

 

[Jaymc]

Out of interest Jaymc, what are you looking for from your 7 quotes?

What would it be that swayed you towards one from another and why? Genuinely interested as you seem to be quite particular (no offense) and where are you based?

oh and what work are you having (maybe) done?

Out of interest Jaymc, what are you looking for from your 7 quotes?


What would it be that swayed you towards one from another and why? Genuinely interested as you seem to be quite particular (no offense) and where are you based?


oh and what work are you having (maybe) done?

Hi Nostrum,


I have a 4 bed detached, 1.5 bathrooms, 9 rads, running on an Ideal Elan 2, and I think? An Albion Mainsflow tank located on my upstairs landing.
I'm asking for old stuff out, a flush, and a WB ? CDI in its place. With the WB filter to get the maximum Warranty. I'm removing all the rads and replacing myself, and have offered to assist if required opening up work to smaller businesses, as they are normally just a one man unit.


I am incredibly picky, and expect a good level of service, knowledge and skill, this is ingrained as part of my previous role as an aircraft engineer.
I may have frightened some off with my expectations, but it shows a lack of professionalism to me.
I run a team of 15 engineers, and expect the same levels from them. I almost want someone to bore me with knowledge, and offer more than one option. The current quotes are pretty much "tear it out and start again" Not one of them has offered anything else other than the combi route, and I've sort of swayed myself in that direction, because some of them weren't able to make sense of the system I have?
I've also been told to fit 3 different sized combis (all WB) and as a note, they're all from the WB accredited installers list.


Well you did ask LOL

 

[Nostrum]

Hi Nostrum,


I have a 4 bed detached, 1.5 bathrooms, 9 rads, running on an Ideal Elan 2, and I think? An Albion Mainsflow tank located on my upstairs landing.
I'm asking for old stuff out, a flush, and a WB ? CDI in its place. With the WB filter to get the maximum Warranty. I'm removing all the rads and replacing myself, and have offered to assist if required opening up work to smaller businesses, as they are normally just a one man unit.


I am incredibly picky, and expect a good level of service, knowledge and skill, this is ingrained as part of my previous role as an aircraft engineer.
I may have frightened some off with my expectations, but it shows a lack of professionalism to me.
I run a team of 15 engineers, and expect the same levels from them. I almost want someone to bore me with knowledge, and offer more than one option. The current quotes are pretty much "tear it out and start again" Not one of them has offered anything else other than the combi route, and I've sort of swayed myself in that direction, because some of them weren't able to make sense of the system I have?
I've also been told to fit 3 different sized combis (all WB) and as a note, they're all from the WB accredited installers list.


Well you did ask LOL

No it's fair enough. Where are you?

Being a WB installer means they can offer you a free WB branded whoopee cushion on request and a mass produced boiler to boot. If you're after a poorly engineered piece of kit with the advantage of feeling secure that they can afford to sponsor the regional weather, then you're in safe hands.

Of course, we all have our own favourites but most of the guys who I'd trust to fit a boiler for me, wouldn't specify a Worcester.

Then there's British Gas, who'll send a shiny suited salesman (unlikely to be gas qualified and sales led) and who require a massive turnover to maintain profit. They'll most likely send a one man band in to actually fit they boiler by the way. Oh and the long warranty you'd normally get is reduced to 1 years homecare, with the option to continue paying a monthly fee for ongoing cover.

Personally if it was me quoting, I'd be asking why you want a combi?

 

[Jaymc]

I'm in Chester.

Interesting observations of WB? What's your weapon of choice?
I was considering a combi as I gain the space from loosing the tank giving me a 6x3 space to utilise better

Regarding the non combi route, I wouldn't know where to start, looks like many options that I don't understand.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

how many are there living in the house?

 

[Jaymc]

2 adults, 2 kids Shaun.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

2 adults, 2 kids Shaun.

i would go with a system boiler/heat only then a 250-300 L unvented cylinder

 

[Masood]

i would go with a system boiler/heat only then a 250-300 L unvented cylinder

Definitely. Not a household suitable for a combi..

 

[Jaymc]

My other problem with the storage tank is that the heat is unbearable in the summer, but welcome in the winter, its very hot in there, tank is old and probably not very thermally efficient compared to the new types?

We're quite efficient in our water use, very few baths and as a shift worker I shower at work, so consumption isn't huge?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

My other problem with the storage tank is that the heat is unbearable in the summer, but welcome in the winter, its very hot in there, tank is old and probably not very thermally efficient compared to the new types?

the new types will be 1000% better at keeping the heat in, does the old one have a jacket on it?

 

[Masood]

I'm going to open a can of worms here because I'm bored, halfway through a bottle of red and it's Friday.

The approved documents are for guidance and not compulsory unless the contents is highlighted in green.

If we're spouting regulation, ie enforceable in a court, you'll need to ensure you comply with this for existing dwellings:


L1. Reasonable provision shall be made for the conservation of fuel and power in buildings by:
(a) limiting heat gains and losses—
(i) through thermal elements and other parts of the building fabric; and
(ii) from pipes, ducts and vessels used for space heating, space cooling and hot water services;
(b) providing fixed building services which—
(i) are energy efficient;
(ii) have effective controls; and
(iii) are commissioned by testing and adjusting as necessary to ensure they use no more fuel and power than is reasonable in the circumstances; and
Regulation 40 providing to the owner sufficient information about the building, the fixed building services and their maintenance requirements so that the building can be operated in such a manner as to use no more fuel and power than is reasonable in the circumstances.

:wheelchair:

In an ideal world we'd have no TRVs, well sized radiators, weather comp with a heat curve matched to the building and a suitably sized boiler to the buildings heat losses. TRVs reduce water volume volume through boiler which doesn't help with short cycling and minimum run times.

But instead we opt for 40kw combis for "good hot water flow"

Anyway I'm going off topic and no one cares about all that.

Yeepeee

If you mean Approved Document L1B, it contains no reference to emitters/radiators or TRVs.

The information I gave comes from The domestic building services compliance guide, which does what it says on the tin.

Section 1.4 is about the status of the Guide, in case you think it's not a relevant document.

Table 3 gives the requirements for a new system, whether it is in a new or existing building.

Item 3 says that each circuit should be provided with

i) ...
ii) ... individual radiator controls such as TRVs on all rads outside the reference room

Table 4 give the minimum standards (to comply with Building Regs) and "Good Practice" advice when replacing components in an existing system, i.e. items which exceed the minimum standard.

Item 3 relates to radiators. There are no Minimum Standards though, obviously, you can't make a system worse, e.g by removing a TRV where one is already fitted. (Unless it's in the reference room with the room stat!)

Good Practice is to fit a TRV, unless the room has a room stat.

Interesting how different people read things differently!

My interpretation of both these documents is that you take all measures to reduce energy consumption. Which, in the absence of a truly cohesive whole-house, weather compensated, fully insulated design, means TRVs, zoning and time/temp controls!

 

[Nostrum]

I'd be recommending a decent heat only boiler around 12-15kw (guessing it a relatively modern home but needs calculating) on a clean sealed system and replacing the cylinder if required. Weather compensation if the current system is up to it and rads are well sized.

A 12kw boiler will modulate down to about 4kw (maybe less) so will be able to tick over matching the heat loss of the building.

A 30kw + combi would modulate down to about 8kw which is probably about your buildings heat loss at -1 outside. Therefore for a large percentage of the year, the boiler is outputting more than the house is losing, return temperature goes up and boiler turns off frequently.

You'll also get a better hot water flow rate from the cylinder, so basically when you think about it, a combi does both jobs, worse.

 

[Jaymc]

No jacket, just externally insulated with expanding foam type material.

Could you suggest a boiler and a tank? I can run off and educate myself further? :bigcry:
I can see some specs, and look at some alternatives.

 

[Nostrum]

Interesting how different people read things differently!

My interpretation of both these documents is that you take all measures to reduce energy consumption. Which, in the absence of a truly cohesive whole-house, weather compensated, fully insulated design, means TRVs, zoning and time/temp controls!

Hi Masood,

The clue is in the bit no one can ever be bothered to read (including me until it was pointed out by somebody else!)

It reads:

"Approved documents set out what, in ordinary circumstances, may be accepted as reasonable provision for compliance with the relevant requirements of the Building Regulations to which they refer. If you follow the guidance in an approved document, there will be a presumption of compliance with the requirements covered by the guidance. However, compliance is not guaranteed; for example, ‘normal’ guidance may not apply if the particular case is unusual in some way."


Then:

"Note that there may be other ways to comply with the requirements – there is no obligation to adopt any particular solution contained in an approved document. If you prefer to meet a relevant requirement in some other way than described in an approved document, you should discuss this with the relevant building control body."

 

[Jaymc]

Now this is why I used the forum!

I hadn't ruled out replacing like for like, but the choice is bewildering, but I realise the benefits of what you're suggesting. And the specs of the boilers for heat and water are clearly less.
Are install costs similar? I'm thinking it would be easier as it's a straight swap?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

worcester r18/24 depending on size (worked out room sizes and cylinder need)

if you want

worcester cylinder 250-300 depending on need

rm Stelflow """ """ """ """ """ """ """

the cost is hard to say without seeing it but i think it wouldn't be too far off depends on spec tbh

 

[Nostrum]

No jacket, just externally insulated with expanding foam type material.

Could you suggest a boiler and a tank? I can run off and educate myself further? :bigcry:
I can see some specs, and look at some alternatives.

Personally, for various reasons

Ideal Vogue is a good value, respectable quality and low modulating boiler (good for combi and system because of said modulation)

We've now taken on the ATAG compact range. Very good quality with good controls (one controller) although admittedly a new product, the previous ATAG ranges have been first class.

Also, Intergas for another good quality product. Really only benefit in combi form due to the heat exchanger design.

Viessmann also get a lot of praise although I've not had much dealing with them.

For cylinders, much of a much in my opinion although we use Joule as they offer the best range for just about any situation.

 

[Dsp]

I have to agree unvented cylinder and a system boiler with tank and boiler in the loft if at all possible if not boiler in original position and new tank in loft if possible. You gain your cupboard where your vented cylinder is and possibly the room where your current boiler is. Any pipe work your keeping need flushing fully and if fitting new rads spend the extra few quid and buy good quality ones you really do get what you pay for

 

[kay-jay]

Whatever you do dont fit trv's to towel rails....

 

[Ollieg]

4 pages....... well I never.

 

[newcastle phill]

Id like to talk about them again and ask why they only come in white [emoji12]

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Id like to talk about them again and ask why they only come in white [emoji12]

They don't