Gas Rating dfe with no data plate?

[Hobo128]

Went to a dfe service the other day and found that there was no MI or data badge on the fire. So i had to assess the installation against the requirment of the current and reletive british standard regs.

Measured hearth requirments: Ok
Measure flue diameter/height against builders opening:Ok
Checked for adequit ventilation ( Document j part 3.11 100cm2): Ok
Visually inspected flue :Ok
Flue flow test:Ok
Took note of position of coals and cleaned them and burner then replaced:Ok
Checked FSD (29 second fail safe):Ok
Checked working pressure at meter 22.5
Checked working pressure at appliance 21.5:Ok
Spillage test as stated using method from Essential gas safety:Ok
Then finally i gas rated it (3600x10.76x21/120=6.77kwgross)

My question is that is there any point me gas rating this appliance without having a data badge or Mi or should i have just capped the appliance straight away even though everything seems in good working order?

 

[diamondgas]

No worries in my opinion Hobo128 ... NO reason to cap unless it's spilling fumes or leaking gas! The fact that it had to mi's meant you followed the next best procedures and it passed, especially having enough ventilation! No MI's is a pain but only limits what we can do safely! My only concern in these situations is having to remove the coals to get the fire out of the opening! No Mi's means I can't! IMO

 

[kirkgas]

Went to a dfe service the other day and found that there was no MI or data badge on the fire. So i had to assess the installation against the requirment of the current and reletive british standard regs.

Measured hearth requirments: Ok
Measure flue diameter/height against builders opening:Ok
Checked for adequit ventilation ( Document j part 3.11 100cm2): Ok
Visually inspected flue :Ok
Flue flow test:Ok
Took note of position of coals and cleaned them and burner then replaced:Ok
Checked FSD (29 second fail safe):Ok
Checked working pressure at meter 22.5
Checked working pressure at appliance 21.5:Ok
Spillage test as stated using method from Essential gas safety:Ok
Then finally i gas rated it (3600x10.76x21/120=6.77kwgross)

My question is that is there any point me gas rating this appliance without having a data badge or Mi or should i have just capped the appliance straight away even though everything seems in good working order?

without relevant MI or product knowledge you cant mark the test results as Ok as you have nothing to confirm they are ok, generic testing procedures and methods "might" be ok but thats my point without the MI "might" isnt good enough, simple question i ask in this situation "can you 100% guarantee that it is working safely, and would you risk your liberty and reputation on what you have written"? as per gas forms its a tick box answer YES or NO, no room for ifs, buts or maybes, you have calculated the HI as per a calculation we all know but without the MI whats the point as you cant confirm it is right or not, ok at 6kw we all know it sounds about right, but what if the injector is wrong and it should be more/less, you carefully removed and replaced coals, as per the way my wee mum put them back a few months ago (without MI) etc etc

 

[dancinplumba]

kirkgas is 100% right imo (as always )
what should coals position be ?

 

[plumbdoctor]

no instructions for coals its at least at risk

 

[glenno1]

I tend to use the internet (netbook,phone,laptop etc)and go to manufacturers website and that usually gets me the info i need

 

[yo1]

if all the generic tests passed, what reasons could you give for it being unsafe too use? and would it not pass a cp12 as it is operating safely at the time of testing?

 

[Atouchofgas]

I agree with kirkgas and IMHO I would not touch the fire as you do not know what the hi is meant to be. I have dealt with dfe from 6kw to 15kw, so how can you tell which hi this is without MI or data badge. I would advise cust to replace.

 

[yo1]

I agree also, you will never be able to check the hi is correct.. but imho I would not leave it with out performing checks on it if I was there to inspect it and did not have mi's.

 

[diamondgas]

Personally as long as you have proved that the poc are being removed and there is adequate ventilation I do not see a problem! I've come across 20yr old grate fires which are just a gas tap connected to a coil of pipe with slots under a bed of vermiculite with coals scattered above & no fsd! Expensive to run for sure but that's how they were made!

Are folk saying here that they'd At Risk an appliance and even advise them to get something new just because they've never seen one before? For sure be safe and advise the customer of YOUR issue. However it is entirely up to the customer what course of action you take next. They could well phone the manufacturers to maintain their appliance and thus save themselves the cost of replacement! Our ignorance is not an excuse to leave people without heating IMHO.

In my experience there are more appliances out there without mi's readily available than with! When I've asked customers for mi's they give me that blank look as if I'm nuts!! I'm not saying jump in Willey nilly and throw the coals back on scatter effect there are tests that can be carried out though that can guarantee that on the day of testing, the appliance was working safely IMO.

GIUSP 3.2 states "When assessing whether an existing appliance is installed correctly, where practicable, the operative should in the first instance consult the manufacturer's instructions ... Where the mi's for the appliance are not available an assessment of the installation against requirements of the current versions of installation standards should be carried out." It goes on to mention working "... within the limits of the operatives' competencies." No where does it say if you haven't got the mi's turn it off and recommend a replacement

 

[desrob]

Personally as long as you have proved that the poc are being removed and there is adequate ventilation I do not see a problem! I've come across 20yr old grate fires which are just a gas tap connected to a coil of pipe with slots under a bed of vermiculite with coals scattered above & no fsd! Expensive to run for sure but that's how they were made!

Are folk saying here that they'd At Risk an appliance and even advise them to get something new just because they've never seen one before? For sure be safe and advise the customer of YOUR issue. However it is entirely up to the customer what course of action you take next. They could well phone the manufacturers to maintain their appliance and thus save themselves the cost of replacement! Our ignorance is not an excuse to leave people without heating IMHO.

In my experience there are more appliances out there without mi's readily available than with! When I've asked customers for mi's they give me that blank look as if I'm nuts!! I'm not saying jump in Willey nilly and throw the coals back on scatter effect there are tests that can be carried out though that can guarantee that on the day of testing, the appliance was working safely IMO.

GIUSP 3.2 states "When assessing whether an existing appliance is installed correctly, where practicable, the operative should in the first instance consult the manufacturer's instructions ... Where the mi's for the appliance are not available an assessment of the installation against requirements of the current versions of installation standards should be carried out." It goes on to mention working "... within the limits of the operatives' competencies." No where does it say if you haven't got the mi's turn it off and recommend a replacement

how can you 100% confirm you av enuf ventilation without mi

 

[diamondgas]

how can you 100% confirm you av enuf ventilation without mi

DGF = 100cmsq regardless of it's gas rate does it not? But you could gas rate it and work out whether it need more than that yeh?

I think I've gone off on a one actually Desrob as the ops original question has been answered IMO....

regards ventilation though! Mi's give you guidance, you could actually need more than the mi's recomendations. All depends on other factors such as flueing and termination!

 

[warrington]

If technical information cannot be obtained the operative will be unable to comply with regulation 26(9)(C). Where the appliance's performance is unsatisfactory the appliance must be regarded as Immediately Dangerous and the appropriate action taken.

 

[GrahamM]

If you cannot confirm the appliance is working within it's safe operational limits, it is at the very least got to be left 'AR'.

Come on now! This is bread & butter!

 

[diamondgas]

So you'd cap off a pensioners only source of heat in the middle of winter because you are not sure of it's operating burner pressure/gas rate and the custard hasn't got the mi's, poor old dear doesn't know where she's put them! She's flustered...! And your gungho!

Please folks lets get real By all means explain to your customer that you do not feel safe working on the appliance and cannot carry out work on the appliance until you gain more info... Put the onus on the custard or Landlord end of day! However IMHO we have no right to turn an appliance off because WE do not have the knowledge or experience to work on it! You give it a visual and inform the responsible person that you are unable to do anything further because of limited knowledge you have or available material to do your job safely!!

 

[GrahamM]

Who said anything about capping? "AT-RISK"!

You have covered yourself and acted responsibly within the regulations.

Anything less when you cannot confirm the safe operational limits of the appliance is poor in my opinion.

 

[dancinplumba]

So you'd cap off a pensioners only source of heat in the middle of winter because you are not sure of it's operating burner pressure/gas rate and the custard hasn't got the mi's, poor old dear doesn't know where she's put them! She's flustered...! And your gungho!

Please folks lets get real By all means explain to your customer that you do not feel safe working on the appliance and cannot carry out work on the appliance until you gain more info... Put the onus on the custard or Landlord end of day! However IMHO we have no right to turn an appliance off because WE do not have the knowledge or experience to work on it! You give it a visual and inform the responsible
person that you are unable to do anything further because of limited knowledge you have or available material to do your job safely!!

source of heat with a dfe !!! you avin a larf DG lol

 

[diamondgas]

Who said anything about capping? "AT-RISK"!

You have covered yourself and acted responsibly within the regulations.

Anything less when you cannot confirm the safe operational limits of the appliance is poor in my opinion.

I wasn't getting at you mate ... in my experience you do not touch what you do not feel compitent to work on, period! Give it a visual and explain to the responsible person the limits you have without the neccessary info available and that is all you need do! Don't start is what I am saying! Even with a CP12 you are not responsible for the instalation or the appliance chosen! You cannot determine whether it is safe or not so you leave it well alone and inform! How can you At Risk something when you do not know if its contravening anything?

 

[diamondgas]

source of heat with a dfe !!! you avin a larf DG lol

lol ... well if the flue's blocked their not complaining!! Well maybe about the headaches Budgie's probably on it's back in its cage though..........poor thing!

 

[GrahamM]

My take on it.
I cannot remove coals as I cannot confirm they are correct position. I do not even know if they are all present. I also cannot confirm safe operation of appliance as do not know BP/gas rate figures.
Flue flow ok, spill good.

I must then leave it At-risk as I cannot confirm it is operating within safe limits.

 

[dancinplumba]

My take on it.
I cannot remove coals as I cannot confirm they are correct position. I do not even know if they are all present. I also cannot confirm safe operation of appliance as do not know BP/gas rate figures.
Flue flow ok, spill good.

I must then leave it At-risk as I cannot confirm it is operating within safe limits.

wouldnt even do flue flow or spill, its ar
imo

 

[GrahamM]

I feel obligated to at least carry out a spillage as if it fails badly it is obviously ID and I was last engineer at it.

 

[diamondgas]

My take on it.
I cannot remove coals as I cannot confirm they are correct position. I do not even know if they are all present. I also cannot confirm safe operation of appliance as do not know BP/gas rate figures.
Flue flow ok, spill good.

I must then leave it At-risk as I cannot confirm it is operating within safe limits.

I wouldn't disagree that erring on the side of caution will not be the wrong decision GrahamM... However why even start work on something you have no knowledge of or any mi's for guidance? When asked on the paperwork did you work on it the answer will be 'NO' in the commments you write something along the lines of 'no mi's or knowledge of the appliance, visual check only!' Inform the responsible person!

 

[warrington]

Today i had my first visit from gas safe, and we were talking about regulation 26.9 and subject came to exactly this situation. As i posted before, without MI or data unable to comply 26.9.C! It states in BPEC domestic gas safety manual mod 10 page 4!
And inspector said you can't service the appliance because of 26.9.C. It is not just operating pressure or heat input, it is also coals here.
So i think if you don't want to At-risk or ID the appliance ( depends on how satisfactory ) , best thing is not to get the job and explain the customer. Because at the end of the day , there is engineers name and signature on the service .

 

[diamondgas]

I feel obligated to at least carry out a spillage as if it fails badly it is obviously ID and I was last engineer at it.

That makes perfectly good safe working practice IMO ... I've said to many a custard that I cannot work on their appliance but will check to see if it is at least clearing the fumes!

 

[kirkgas]

I feel obligated to at least carry out a spillage as if it fails badly it is obviously ID and I was last engineer at it.

where MUST you do a spillage test on a ?? make and ?? model, without MI you cannot do a spillage test, and i can quote the generic statement as well as anyone, but it says "unless MI says otherwise", ok a DFE will be at the flue box/catchment space front, but might be at a specific position, so again no MI = no HI, coal placement or spillage for me, so it has to be AR with the advice not to use it, therefore allowing the customer to make an informed judgement call which they can be held liable for

 

[GrahamM]

I have seen enough fires by many manufactures to at least have a general idea where to take a basic spillage from the various formats.

This gives me a general indication, in the absence of MI's, in my professional opinion if the flue is at least drawing.
Bearing in mind I have no MI's to carry out a proper service- this is only a basic safety check and if in my professional opinion the spill is ok I will leave the fire as AR and inform customer that MI's will need to be procured for full service to be carried out.

In my opinion this is the very least that should be done.

 

[dancinplumba]

where MUST you do a spillage test on a ?? make and ?? model, without MI you cannot do a spillage test, and i can quote the generic statement as well as anyone, but it says "unless MI says otherwise", ok a DFE will be at the flue box/catchment space front, but might be at a specific position, so again no MI = no HI, coal placement or spillage for me, so it has to be AR with the advice not to use it, therefore allowing the customer to make an informed judgement call which they can be held liable for

once again 100% with kirkgas on this

 

[diamondgas]

Anyone heard of a DGI label? Don't Get Involved! Personally I take each circumstance on its merits; age of appliance, observation of its surroundings and the customer using it or not as the case may be. In other words give it a visual! Maybe familiarity breeds contempt in my case *shrug* I still struggle to get my head around turning something off because of my lack of knowledge though? These incidences are few and far between in my experience so will not dwell to much TBH ... I do not disagree with you regards At Risking being the safest approach to adopt but what is the appliance at risk of ... An LFE that needs removing to inspect catchment space etc I can understand AR, but a DGF that sits in front of a chair brick and an open Chimney sucking like a Dyson ... hmmmm!

 

[dancinplumba]

liking sig DG