Changing the MCS

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Changing the MCS

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unguided1

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So many people that I speak to around the country are complaining about the MCS being too expensive for one man bands and small companies and have no idea what to do about. There have been many people on this forum asking and talking about the MCS, and saying its to expensive, especially me, well now is the time to stop whineing about it and get off our backsides and do something to claim our trade back that is rightfully ours, the trade that we have worked hard for, and trained hard for all our lives.


Mickw has a proven track record for getting something done when he got the industry and the government to adopt the boiler scrapage scheme. How many of you would have gone under with out that boost to our industry, I know I made money out of it.

He has now agreed to be our industry voice to get something done about the ridiculous MCS that has been proven to be a complete nonsense since its invention and is holding back many a good business because of its physical cost and office mentality, all well and good if your a trained office chimp, well I for one am not, I have been a heating engineer since 1979 I was trained on solid fuel, oil and gas, even more importantly I was also trained to design and install heating systems, what are the qualifications worth that I attained today absolutely nothing, the fact that I am Gas Safe registered means that I can install an appliance on to any system wether safe or dangerous doesnt matter as the only thing that is important is the appliance and right now it is the same for MCS. So I say it is time that we tell the industry and the government that they have got it wrong and it is high time that things changed for the better with more focus on the engineering of the whole system instead of turning us engineers into puppet like office chimps, If they want a QMS and I am doing something I dont want then I want to be paid for it, but why should I pass my costs on to my customer.


So Mickw has got this Blog and he is one voice, one voice will never be heard without support so back him in his fight to help the little man because without support we will lose our industry to a never ending pile of paperwork beurocrats extortionate charges with more hidden charges regulations and fine print, and that is not the trade I signed up for Trade Only: Over-regulation is the Biggest Barrier to Renewable take-up
 
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MickW said:
DECC published the Microgeneration Strategy today. http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/...ogeneration/2015-microgeneration-strategy.pdf

In that document, the importance of small business is recognised in Action 25 and the explanation in clause 4.14.

Action 25
Industry bodies to reach out to the small installer community who are potential advocates of microgeneration technologies as part of their everyday business.
4.14 At present, small installer companies may be not be clarifying the case for microgeneration to potential consumers. The trade associations and other industry bodies have an ideal opportunity to work with their respective members to promote microgeneration. SMEs will want clear concise information about what the opportunities of microgeneration mean for them and how they can get involved.

​

Well, they have got this spot on, but most small installers are not even talking microgeneration to potential consumers and they won’t until they feel able to get involved.

I think most of us agree with the sentiments of Action 25, but as it stands, the smaller installer community are not ready to be advocates, but quite the opposite. I believe my proposal to exempt small business from the QMS element, if implemented, will help this part of the strategy succeed.
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Apologies if i have come in half way through a thread and this has already been covered, "Who is the driveing force behind the renewable market" , the general public, i dont think so, who on this forum has been inundated with enquiries from customers wanting to pay the extra charge involved in fitting green technolgies. There is not, nor will be any apetite from goverment to fund up-skilling. We are Skint !
 
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CES said:
Would it be worth noting something on the Government's Red Tape challenge website?

Red Tape Challenge - About Red Tape Challenge
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Yes, I looked at that a couple of months ago, but it looks like they are inviting comment about specific legislation and I couldn't find anything to do with MCS accreditation there. I've had another look today and still can't find anything relevant. If you, or anyone else, can find a suitable section to place a comment, I'd be very grateful.

I did try to cover this in the closing paragraph of my original blog:

This government talks a lot about the green agenda, encouraging small business, and deregulation. Slimming down MCS to a competence/safety based system for small business will tick all those boxes, with zero downside risk.
​
 
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It was an interesting meeting in the House of Lords with the APHC sustainability group.

MCS dominated the meeting and there was a lot of support for the campaign. There was one dissenting voice which came from a guy who wasn't actually there. He sent a long text to the chair saying that he disagreed with exempting small business from MCS and the reasons why! We are not, of course, asking for exemption from MCS, just the QMS part of it!

I had hoped that the group would formally agree to support the campaign, but it was not to be. A lot of the people were there representing their organisations and, although they personally agreed, they felt unable to formally commit their organisation.

However, it was most definitely useful with a number of influential people telling after the meeting that they will be contacting the right people to make sure we are taken seriously.

I tell you what, it is bloody hard work and very frustrating this campaigning and lobbying for support malarky! I don't think I would have the patience or discretion to be a politician and I most certainly would be too 'gobby'!!

Anyway, all in all, a good days work taking the campaign forward.

Thanks for all your support - it means a lot to me!
 
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Well done for championing the cause Mick. Hopefully we might get some feedback and recognition. As for the guy who sent the text, he obviously doesn't listen, which doesn't really bode well when you are dealing with customers, but that's just my view! What were his reasons just out of interest?.
 
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CES said:
Well done for championing the cause Mick. Hopefully we might get some feedback and recognition. As for the guy who sent the text, he obviously doesn't listen, which doesn't really bode well when you dealing with customers, but thats just my view! What were his reasons just out of interest?.
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Oh dear, I was hoping that nobody would ask me that LOL

Truthfully, I tuned out as soon as I heard that he disagreed with exempting from MCS! I was thinking about a diplomatic way of responding so I honestly don't know his reasons!
 
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MickW said:
It was an interesting meeting in the House of Lords with the APHC sustainability group.

MCS dominated the meeting and there was a lot of support for the campaign. There was one dissenting voice which came from a guy who wasn't actually there. He sent a long text to the chair saying that he disagreed with exempting small business from MCS and the reasons why! We are not, of course, asking for exemption from MCS, just the QMS part of it!

I had hoped that the group would formally agree to support the campaign, but it was not to be. A lot of the people were there representing their organisations and, although they personally agreed, they felt unable to formally commit their organisation.

However, it was most definitely useful with a number of influential people telling after the meeting that they will be contacting the right people to make sure we are taken seriously.

I tell you what, it is bloody hard work and very frustrating this campaigning and lobbying for support malarky! I don't think I would have the patience or discretion to be a politician and I most certainly would be too 'gobby'!!

Anyway, all in all, a good days work taking the campaign forward.

Thanks for all your support - it means a lot to me!
Click to expand...

A Massive well done Mick I do not envy you on this huge undertaking and as I said before I am more than willing to help and give any back up you need or I can just be there to get yer back up!!!.

I feel that the magic words that you have put that sums up your meeting, is that they were only there to represent their own organisations and fundamentaly I feel this is the problem with the whole of our industry, we the plumbers are the industry they the organisations are not the installers and the sooner they realise this the sooner we will be able to sort this whole debarcle out as I keep ranting on on there needs to be on scheme in place that represents us the installers not just a splintered group of fat cats only interested in keeping themselves in a job.
I would love to go to one of these meetings and give em a taste of how I feel about these muppets coz I knoe I wouldnt be able to hold my tongue, as indeed Gas Safe is going to find out on Monday the 18/7/11
 
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I have added an update to the original post in my blog which will also now be incorporated into the briefing document to be circulated around the industry. The update reads as follows:

UPDATE - 14th July 2011

Following consultation with a wide range of stakeholders, some concerns have been expressed that exempting smaller companies from the QMS elements of MCS could weaken consumer protection, and risk bringing the industry into disrepute. Whilst these concerns are understandable, we think that they are misplaced.

It is important to remember that consumer protection is properly covered by membership of the REAL Assurance Scheme, not by QMS. The REAL requirements are much more clearly written than QMS, and can be easily understood by consumer and installer alike. They cover mis-selling, the provision of technical information, allow for protection of vulnerable consumers and describe general good practice. Critically, they also provide a mechanism for conciliation, rectification and dispute resolution.

QMS tells people how to run their business. BPEC, C&G and other related qualifications teach people how to install systems correctly. REAL sets standards for how customers should be treated. The latter two are far more important than the former, and no-one is arguing that they should be scrapped.

We have not been able to find any critical area in the QMS element which would not be adequately covered for businesses of less than 5 employees either in the REAL Consumer Code, or in the general requirements, or in the technology-specific MIS series of documents. Should other stakeholders identify such a critical omission then it may be necessary to make a minor addition to one of the latter documents.
 
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Nice article Mick, Seems like easy MCS Disagree with this just read this in Renewable energy installer.
Responding to the consultation document, Easy MCS operations manager, Simon Roberts
commented: “The MCS Consultation is taking place to ascertain the barriers to new installers
being able to enter the industry alongside the barriers consumers have in investing in
microgeneration technologies. If the UK renewable industry is to match the demand estimates
from the Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) then more installers are needed.
However, this is already starting to happen. Month on month more and more installers are
applying for MCS and demand at Easy MCS is at a 12 month high.”
Roberts says the current setup of the MCS is very effective. He added: “The standards are
onerous and therefore protect the consumer whilst at the same time provide the installation
company involved with the structure needed to be a successful business. New installers
shouldn’t fear the MCS as with the right support it is accessible to all companies regardless of
size. We have responded to the consultation outlining our thoughts on some of the concerns
raised about maintaining the quality of installers whilst also making more installers aware of
the scheme. We fully support the management of the MCS scheme and look forward to
assisting in increasing awareness to new installers.”

Mind you it's not in their interest to make things easy for small installers they'd lose a lot of customers if the qms was relaxed.
 
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markfxy said:
Nice article Mick, Seems like easy MCS Disagree with this just read this in Renewable energy installer.
Responding to the consultation document, Easy MCS operations manager, Simon Roberts
commented: “The MCS Consultation is taking place to ascertain the barriers to new installers
being able to enter the industry alongside the barriers consumers have in investing in
microgeneration technologies. If the UK renewable industry is to match the demand estimates
from the Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) then more installers are needed.
However, this is already starting to happen. Month on month more and more installers are
applying for MCS and demand at Easy MCS is at a 12 month high.”
Roberts says the current setup of the MCS is very effective. He added: “The standards are
onerous and therefore protect the consumer whilst at the same time provide the installation
company involved with the structure needed to be a successful business. New installers
shouldn’t fear the MCS as with the right support it is accessible to all companies regardless of
size. We have responded to the consultation outlining our thoughts on some of the concerns
raised about maintaining the quality of installers whilst also making more installers aware of
the scheme. We fully support the management of the MCS scheme and look forward to
assisting in increasing awareness to new installers.”

Mind you it's not in their interest to make things easy for small installers they'd lose a lot of customers if the qms was relaxed.
Click to expand...


Just like to say thank you for finding that Markfxy, It just goes to show that people like Simon Roberts have no interest in helping small companies go forward in the renewable market unless they are paying extorionate fees for completley irrelevent QMS, They claim to be a voice in the industry but as far as I am concerned they are not the voice of my industry that is heating and plumbing they are the voice of an industry that does not need to exist, Biomass, solar thermal, heatpumps and CHP should be left to the heating engineers, and PV and wind farms could be dealt with by the electricians, why the hell do we need another so called industry creaming money of the backs of the people already trained to do these types of installation
 
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Give it a few years when the cost of solar PV has come down and the massive profits have gone all the double glazing companies and the rest of them that have jumped on the bandwagon will pull out of the renewables market including easy MCS. Then when there's nobody to install other technologies maybe then the government might realise that ignoring the small installer, one man band wasn't such a good idea. just a thought:smug2:
 
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I like the bit where they mention salesmen sent out to do technical assessments (double glazing salesmen) I might be wrong but to price and assess a system shouldn't you be under MCS rules be a competent person, I wonder how many lose their MCS accreditation because of this probably none of the bigger companies but a one man band would be booted out straight away.
 
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I reckon that they will "tighten" things up to make it even harder for us, typically not understanding where the fault lies.
 
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markfxy said:
I like the bit where they mention salesmen sent out to do technical assessments (double glazing salesmen) I might be wrong but to price and assess a system shouldn't you be under MCS rules be a competent person, I wonder how many lose their MCS accreditation because of this probably none of the bigger companies but a one man band would be booted out straight away.
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Sad isn't it that I think you're probably right! Bugger off you, I absolutely refuse to be depressed! :30:

The campaign is going well and I've got meetings on Monday, Tuesday and Thursday which will help!!
 
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They obviously dont want 1 man bands doing a lot of this work. In the past its many 1 man bands who have given the industry a bad name with poor workmanship. They must be wanting to protect people from this, which in turn should improve the image of the industry
 
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fuzzy said:
They obviously dont want 1 man bands doing a lot of this work. In the past its many 1 man bands who have given the industry a bad name with poor workmanship. They must be wanting to protect people from this, which in turn should improve the image of the industry
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You are probably correct in your thinking Fuzzy, but no-one could ever admit that as it goes against all competition laws. I find it quite interesting that some of these big firms use smaller businesses to install the technologies on their behalf, effectively by passing the rules of MCS. Who wins out of that? certainly not the customer and then the industry takes a pounding.
Maybe they should remove the clause that lets an MCS accredited company use subcontractors? Atleast that way every installer is responsible for the job. Big firms would be forced to employ their own trained staff, smaller subcontracting firms would have to apply to be MCS accredited and therefore responsible for their installs and to bring them alongside the one man band who at the moment has to provide both the admin AND technical expertise.
I still disagree with the QMS but thats another tangent.
 
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fuzzy said:
do you not want the industry to be tightened up?
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I was replying to CES - I don't want the industry 'tightened up' to exclude decent competent installers and let dodgy bigger firms get away with stuff.

My campaign is nothing to do with letting standards or consumer protection diminish. Have you read the update to my blog?
 
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I saw your response to 'tightening up' post and based on your comment considered it to mean you dont want the industry to be controlled.

I read all the time plumbers complaining that sole traders doing poor workmanship ruins the reputation of the industry, we cannot then complain about being regulated, we cannot have it both ways.

They cannot enforce regulation only on bad plumbers, it has to be all. If the system is being misused by larger firms then they should tackle the issue, not water it down to suit more misuse surely?
 
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fuzzy said:
They obviously dont want 1 man bands doing a lot of this work. In the past its many 1 man bands who have given the industry a bad name with poor workmanship. They must be wanting to protect people from this, which in turn should improve the image of the industry
Click to expand...

Maybe it's just me, but I've always found the larger or national companies give a much poorer service than the '1 man bands', but being a 1 man band I'm biased. :)
I'm all for giving my customers a great service and would say 99.9% would agree, you always get the odd one now and again that can never be pleased, and I speak to customers about their options. I can't give them specifics about cost savings, grants etc but to give them an overview of whats available. I also tell them it if they want to seriously investigate renewables to make sure they use an MCS installer and make sure the equipment is MCS accredited, which then prompts the 'why don't you do it?' and the long winded conversation about costs involved etc.
I'm sure I will do it at some point, but not just yet.
 
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fuzzy said:
They cannot enforce regulation only on bad plumbers, it has to be all. If the system is being misused by larger firms then they should tackle the issue, not water it down to suit more misuse surely?
Click to expand...

Interesting point, but surely thats what they should be doing enforcing regulation on bad plumbers. I thought thats the point of being Gas Safe, Oftec, G3. If they're not going to enforce the regulations/poor workmanship why be a member?
Why does the renewable sector require a QMS when other parts don't?
 
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