Changing the MCS

[unguided1]

So many people that I speak to around the country are complaining about the MCS being too expensive for one man bands and small companies and have no idea what to do about. There have been many people on this forum asking and talking about the MCS, and saying its to expensive, especially me, well now is the time to stop whineing about it and get off our backsides and do something to claim our trade back that is rightfully ours, the trade that we have worked hard for, and trained hard for all our lives.


Mickw has a proven track record for getting something done when he got the industry and the government to adopt the boiler scrapage scheme. How many of you would have gone under with out that boost to our industry, I know I made money out of it.

He has now agreed to be our industry voice to get something done about the ridiculous MCS that has been proven to be a complete nonsense since its invention and is holding back many a good business because of its physical cost and office mentality, all well and good if your a trained office chimp, well I for one am not, I have been a heating engineer since 1979 I was trained on solid fuel, oil and gas, even more importantly I was also trained to design and install heating systems, what are the qualifications worth that I attained today absolutely nothing, the fact that I am Gas Safe registered means that I can install an appliance on to any system wether safe or dangerous doesnt matter as the only thing that is important is the appliance and right now it is the same for MCS. So I say it is time that we tell the industry and the government that they have got it wrong and it is high time that things changed for the better with more focus on the engineering of the whole system instead of turning us engineers into puppet like office chimps, If they want a QMS and I am doing something I dont want then I want to be paid for it, but why should I pass my costs on to my customer.


So Mickw has got this Blog and he is one voice, one voice will never be heard without support so back him in his fight to help the little man because without support we will lose our industry to a never ending pile of paperwork beurocrats extortionate charges with more hidden charges regulations and fine print, and that is not the trade I signed up for Trade Only: Over-regulation is the Biggest Barrier to Renewable take-up

 

[MickW]

There are some really good comments on the blog now, but I'd love to see a few more if you get a chance!

Trade Only: Over-regulation is the Biggest Barrier to Renewable take-up

 

[fuzzy]

the blog suggests this forces people to use larger companies as they are the ones more likely to be able to satisfy the mcs scheme. Is that a bad thing?

 

[unguided1]

Hi guys

I have tried to see if we can get some support off the electricians forum Are you happy with the cost of MCS registration
So I hope the sparkys and PV guys will be interested in helping

 

[unguided1]

the blog suggests this forces people to use larger companies as they are the ones more likely to be able to satisfy the mcs scheme. Is that a bad thing?

No its not a bad thing if you own a big company, but I dont and it is not cost effective for me to be MCS accredited

 

[fuzzy]

No its not a bad thing if you own a big company, but I dont and it is not cost effective for me to be MCS accredited

well would it be a bad thing for all medium/large/recognised companies to get the work and install it then register it? they can then ensure standards are high. could always use smaller companies to sub contract too

 

[unguided1]

So what your saying Fuzzy is my loyal customers who I have done work for, for many years some of them over 20 years I should tell them to use someone else?

 

[MickW]

the blog suggests this forces people to use larger companies as they are the ones more likely to be able to satisfy the mcs scheme. Is that a bad thing?

Once the Boiler Scrappage scheme was announced, my life went completely mad. In conjunction with boiler manufacturers, I spent a huge amount of time being interviewed for radio etc and our main message was always the same - get more than one quote for the replacement job.

The utility companies had a brilliant marketing campaign - as soon as the scheme was announced, they 'matched' the government's grant with £400 of their own. £800 off your installation sounds good doesn't it? My message to get more than one quote ensured that the householder would get a quote from smaller installers as well.

Why is this relevant? You can read the Guardian report here on prices and who installed what Energy suppliers charged inflated prices in gas boiler scrappage scheme | Money | The Guardian The important facts to come out of this:

1. Utility companies were on average 33% more expensive than independent installers.
2. Only just over 14% of installations were carried out by the utility companies

We got the message over then!

My fear is that if the whole renewable marketplace is predominantly left to the big boys, the figures will be reversed this time round with them getting more than 80% of installations.

Prices to the householder would be miles higher with little competition from smaller guys, take up will be less and, as a consequence, governments renewable targets will NOT be reached.

That's why it would be a bad thing!

 

[Worcester]

I am news to this forum, however I am fairly active over on the electricians forum in the renewables area, so please bear with me.

I am fully aware of all the MCS paperwork on the Solar PV side (it is onerous).

So A quick question, as part of the MCS for this area (heatpumps) when did anyone last carry out the detailed SAP calculations for a job , or don't you bother?

Thx, Worcester

 

[Worcester]

@ all , this isn't actually off track, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of your gripes.

 

[unguided1]

Hi Worcester Renewables and welcome to the plumbers forum, I have never done a SAP assesment and I am not trained to do so Niether am I MCS accredited but I do inspections and and MCS sign offs as well as installations.

 

[fuzzy]

So what your saying Fuzzy is my loyal customers who I have done work for, for many years some of them over 20 years I should tell them to use someone else?

I wouldnt suggest anyone carries out work they are not experienced and qualified to do. If you have the skills and appropriate quals then whats the issue, not sure I follow your point.


I have seen many threads criticizing non qualified engineers doing work, these schemes are there to protect clients, customers and trusted qualified installers/engineers. They are designed for the right reasons, we cannot have it both ways

 

[Gray0689]

I wouldnt suggest anyone carries out work they are not experienced and qualified to do. If you have the skills and appropriate quals then whats the issue, not sure I follow your point.


I have seen many threads criticizing non qualified engineers doing work, these schemes are there to protect clients, customers and trusted qualified installers/engineers. They are designed for the right reasons, we cannot have it both ways

I've seen the work these so called qualified mcs company's do total rubbish just in it for a fast buck then go bust iv not seen a lot but the ones I've seen my wee girl could do a better job

 

[unguided1]

Hi Fuzzy I am not MCS accredited, I am self employed, The QMS does not work with my style of running my business the physical cost of becoming MCS accredited is prohibitve to me along with all the paperwork that I am required to keep.
I currently inspect MCS accredited installers work as well as unacredited installers and DIYers work. I have witnessed shocking work by so called MCS accredited installers to the point where I have been employed by the customers to put the work right.

So yes because I refuse to become MCS accredited I am therefore branded a cowboy, my customers will tell you different and as I have stated before I am still debating with my self if I wish to remain on the Gas Safe register

 

[MickW]

I wouldnt suggest anyone carries out work they are not experienced and qualified to do. If you have the skills and appropriate quals then whats the issue, not sure I follow your point.


I have seen many threads criticizing non qualified engineers doing work, these schemes are there to protect clients, customers and trusted qualified installers/engineers. They are designed for the right reasons, we cannot have it both ways

I don't think anyone is suggesting that it is ok for unqualified people to do the work.

Competency in design, installation and safety is what is important, not whether the small business has a booking in procedure, logs the conversations with his customer and has quarterly meetings or not!!

So, yes, fuzzy, you are right - it is just the definition of qualified that is arguable and I would argue that the QMS part of MCS is OTT for small business.

 

[fuzzy]

We need to keep this discussion balanced. You have witnessed poor workmanship from mcs accredited installers who are qualified. I have witnessed poor workmansip from gas safe registered installers who are qualified. Does this suggest that being qualified and registered = poor workmanship?

Does this mean we should employ people who have picked it up as opposed to been trained and asked to complete and join a 'quality assurance' scheme? Or is it simply using an extreem to justify not adhering to the rules? Would we be better if people made their own choice as to 'what works with my style of running a business?" If something doesnt suit an individual does it mean it is wrong?

 

[CES]

MCS has nothing to do with being qualified. It is a scheme in place to ensure that government funding is being spent on installations and products that have been installed according to MCS guidelines. The main issue is with the paperwork or Quality system that the MCS requires everyone to have. Larger organisations already have these in place, some have quality departments that do nothing but scrutinise processes and update procedures every day. Smaller businesses are being lumped in with these organisations and the difference in capability, paperwork wise, is causing an unfair balance of competitiveness. By restricting government grants to businesses who may not be able to cope with the quality side of things but are more than capable practically it is essentially putting the smaller guy out of competition.
Not being MCS accredited does not make you a cowboy, neither does being MCS accredited prevent you from being one.

 

[Gray0689]

No but what it does mean is the system is wrong and needs changing as I think we all know it don't work to suit smaller company's

 

[unguided1]

I agree Fuzzy a balanced discussion is extremly important to make people realise that that what is being asked for is not a complete dissalusion of the MCS but the fact that it is more important to look at the engineering side of installations than the paperwork side of it. Also why does there have to be another seperate body covering renewables when their should be just one body covering the whole aspect of an installation. I hate the way our industry has been splintered with all the focus on individual types of appliance forcing companies to specialise or pay out thousands of pounds to different professional bodies This is fine for medium or large companies but is far beyond the reach of the self employed man who may only do one or two of each type of installation per year.

More focus should be spent looking at qualifications and when I say this I am not talking about some 2 day or 2 week trainning course that is all that are designed so that you are trained to pass an exam not to give you the practical knowledge to do your job and is all that is needed for joining these bodies for example MCS require that you have done a trainning course hence you now have double glazing companies advertising and installing solar thermal and PV

 

[markfxy]

What is the MCS definition of a competent installer from what i can gather it is someone who has experience in office work & qms systems with little regard given to the actual quality of the installation, I"ve just come across an MCS registered companies website where the two clowns running it have previously been selling phones for carphone warehouse and if you want to be on there list of subcontractors they will watch you do an installation to see if you meet their standards!!! I think i'l be packing it all in soon it's a complete joke and become a double glazing installer probably install more renewables that way.

 

[fuzzy]

yeh i know what you mean, not sure of the answers but the new 2399 C&Gs qual is the way forward it would seem

 

[unguided1]

yeh i know what you mean, not sure of the answers but the new 2399 C&Gs qual is the way forward it would seem

Hi fuzzy I am completly unaware of the new qualifications I just know that the ones I attained 30 years ago are no longer worth the paper they are written on

 

[fuzzy]

2399 is renewable energy quals, solar, gshp. ashp etc etc. It is the new qcf suite and very thourough. It puts installers on the new skills database so clients can check (see my other thread)

Quals completed 30 years ago are very out of date in relation to renewable technology. I agree with supporting engineers in our industry to upskill as this will be to the benfit of all

 

[GQuigley67]

do you know how long the course is and how much it costs fuzzy ?

 

[fuzzy]

if you did all of the course its around 350 hours of learning
i guess most centres will break it up into parts
initial over view and exam - 15 hours prob run 1 day ish with half done on your own away from centre

solar
pv
heat pumps (air and ground)
rainwater and greay water harvesting

all around 70- hours in total

i guess they will split this up too

if done as part of advanced apprenticeship it will be free
if adult upskilling it will range from £150ish - £1,000s???
id hope the government come up with some funding

this is a better course than the short courses designed just for installers

check out my other thread, it has a link

 

[MickW]

DECC published the Microgeneration Strategy today. http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/...ogeneration/2015-microgeneration-strategy.pdf

In that document, the importance of small business is recognised in Action 25 and the explanation in clause 4.14.

Action 25
Industry bodies to reach out to the small installer community who are potential advocates of microgeneration technologies as part of their everyday business.

4.14 At present, small installer companies may be not be clarifying the case for microgeneration to potential consumers. The trade associations and other industry bodies have an ideal opportunity to work with their respective members to promote microgeneration. SMEs will want clear concise information about what the opportunities of microgeneration mean for them and how they can get involved.

​

Well, they have got this spot on, but most small installers are not even talking microgeneration to potential consumers and they won’t until they feel able to get involved.

I think most of us agree with the sentiments of Action 25, but as it stands, the smaller installer community are not ready to be advocates, but quite the opposite. I believe my proposal to exempt small business from the QMS element, if implemented, will help this part of the strategy succeed.

 

[CES]

I hope this does not mean the industry bodies will use this as a green light to take up MCS as a standard for qualification.

 

[SimonG]

I hope this does not mean the industry bodies will use this as a green light to take up MCS as a standard for qualification.

So I wasn't the only one reading between the lines that they will require everybody to have level 3 training. So would that mean that us older guys pre NVQ would have to splash out to get that as well?

Interesting times, but at least some acknowledgement for the smaller businesses.

 

[CES]

It was more a thought of Gas Safe etc saying we now needed to have a QMS in place in order to be registered.

 

[SimonG]

It was more a thought of Gas Safe etc saying we now needed to have a QMS in place in order to be registered.

Just as well I'm not gas safe, unless they do it for oil!

 

[CES]

Well it would only take one industry body to start it I suppose..