Boiler Change Install - Advice Please

[lauy]

Hi

Please could I get some advice from all of you who will no doubt be much more experienced than I am. My situation is as follows:

I currently have what appears to be an Ideal System Boiler (which was fitted around 5-6 years ago I think), which has pipes leading up to the attic where a cylinder/tank sits. There are then pipes from this that go through to the central heating and hot water, and onto the shower right below via a power pump, which is great because its nice and powerful. The problem that I have is that the boiler and all of the pipes etc were fitted in the small bedroom (3 bed semi-detached property), but now we have our first baby on the way next month and will be using this as a nursery, we would prefer it to not have a big boiler in it.

So, I had a guy come round and take a look at the system, and the possibility of moving it to the kitchen, which would be possible but would require quite a lot of pipe work for the hot water to get up to the shower because it can't go through the bathroom tiles. I was recommended either a Vaillant ecoTEC plus combi 824 or 831 or a Vaillant ecoTEC pro 24 or 28. I understand the obvious plus sides of changing to a combi, (i.e. savings in gas bills, not as much wastage if hot water not used, don't need to use electricity to power pump).....but I was also told that the power to the shower may not be as powerful as it is now due to there being no pump and the pipe work being long and not direct/straight. I was also told that I could go for a similar spec Vaillant System boiler (probably either 618/624) and keep the cylinder/pump etc but moving the boiler to the kitchen would still require the same amount of work/cost as if it was a combi, and I wouldn't be saving on gas/electric bills either, but obviously I wouldn't lose the power in the shower.

The other problem we sometimes find is that we have the hot water on a timer (once in morning for 1 hour, once at night for 1 hour), and if we don't use the hot water, then after a few hours say, the shower wouldn't be as hot and sometimes go cold towards end. This can be quite annoying with a few people in the house as the 2nd person having a shower usually ends up having to either wait for more hot water or have to rush.

Our main reason for wanting a new boiler is to move it out of the small bedroom completely due to the baby, but we want to be able to save money, and to not have to lose power in the shower. What would you recommend in this situation?

Go for combi and move to kitchen and just risk possibly losing power in the shower, go for a new system boiler and move it to the kitchen, or just stick with what we've got?

Thanks for your advice in advance,

 

[midge]

In my own home I prefer a conventional condensing boiler with hot water cylinder and a power shower. No shortage of hot water and also fills a deep bath quickly. A combi will usually save space though and many customers prefer them because of this.
I guess it depends on your own circumstances, space and budget.

 

[secret squirrel]

In my house, running 2 bathrooms, both showers being used at the same time plus hot outlets in kitchen/utility room I'd rather poke myself in the eyes with sharp pins than have a combi.

If your using your shower on a combi and someone opens the kitchen hot then you will loose power in the shower.

 

[lauy]

thanks for your responses. Sounds like combi's aren't as good as I thought they were.........don't like the idea of losing power if someone turns on a hot tap. If I got a new Vaillant system boiler to replace my current one, would it be any better at keeping the water hot or is this just dependant on the cylinder? I notice that the hot water in shower gets cold sometimes towards end if it is used for slightly longer than normal.

Also, at the moment, I have my hot water on a timer, once in morning for an hour, once in evening for an hour............if I just left it on all the time, would it be using gas constantly until I manually turned it off or would it turn off itself after it reached a certain amount of hot water?

Sesolutions, you mention a 37kw boiler, i assume you mean a combi....the only one that Vaillant offer that is 37kw seems to be the top model 837, but I was advised this would be way too big for my house? Slightly confused now, would getting the 37kw mean the shower wouldn't lose power if someone turned on a hot tap? The models he recommended were either 23kw or 31kw and flow rate of 9.4 and 12.7 respectively.

 

[steadyon]

Why do you want to move the boiler?

If its because of physical size then you have no choice.
If its because of noise in the bedroom, then, depending on the new baby and his / her sensitivity to noise, you may have no choice.
If its because you are worried about having a gas boiler in a bedroom, have it serviced (regularly) by a Gas Safe registered engineer, get him / her to fit a good quality Carbon Monoxide alarm and leave the boiler where it is.

Without seeing the layout of your house its impossible to tell, but you might consider the cost of re-tiling all or part of the bathroom in comparison to the convenience of getting what you want.

Good luck with the sleepless nights.

 

[GQuigley67]

kitchens are an ideal place for boilers these day due to condensate pipework

combi's have their pros and cons

pros

instantanious hot water
endless supply of hot water
doesn't take up alot of space
cheaper to install
mains pressure hot water


cons
unless its a large 35kw+ combi it will struggle with 2 or more bathrooms
boiler breaks down you have no back up of hot water
somone opens even a cold tap while your in shower you will notice reduced flow

as for an unvented cylinder and system boiler

pros
No Feed & Expansion Tank Required
Hot & Cold water supply to all outlets high pressure
Balanced hot and cold water supply pressures throughout household
Hot Water Storage
high performance showers without the need for pumps
no cistern in loft
no risk of water stagnation
no noise of filling cisterns

Cons
more expensive to install
will need space to house cylinder

I have a 30kw combi in my house which is great, I have one bathroom so it is ideal and when someone uses a tap downstairs I get a slight decrease in flow at the shower but not much, although I have a good incoming mains and flow rate to compensate

 

[secret squirrel]

Just one more point in relation to Gquigleys excellent breakdown of systems, even a large combi is dependant on flow of water so even if you have a large boiler but only a 15mm pipe with a max 3 bar your still limited to what you can get and running 2 showers will be problematic....

so much info.... so many ways to skin a rabbit

Apologies re read the post and the above is covered.... I shouldnt drink in the afternoon it slows the brain down

 

[lauy]

Thanks for everyone's input and advice, and the excellent pros and cons breakdown. I initially thought a combi was better than other types and would be an obvious upgrade from what I have, but seems this isn't really the case. Guess I will have to have a good think over.

 

[GQuigley67]

if you post in the part of the forum "I'm lookin for a plumber or gas engineer" with your location, someone may be able to pop round and give you a quote

 

[philtheflush]

you cant have it all but i would say the gas and electricity bills are going up its a small inconvenience to have a lesser powerful shower how long you going to be in it anyway toss a coin if you have to but i would go for a combi

 

[stevetheplumber]

millions of people use combis there so convienient because theres always hot water no waiting for tanks to heat up never running out no mater how many showers you take
most shower pumps are 3 bar max most water mains are at least 2bar many will be 4 and over so chances are you shower will be similar
any combi over 30kw willl do the job
if your existing cylinder is in the loft and boiler up stairs you could consider fitting either boiler in the loft ?
changing to a new conventional boiler will make no diference to your existing water problems

 

[jtsplumbing]

As Stevetheplumber says ! if cost of boiler is an issue (why change it if only 5 years old) ? think about relocating it in the loft, as for the hot water if you leave it on constant the cylinder stat will control it, boiler will only fire when water temp drops, if your hot water tank is the older type (coverd with red insulation) think about replaceing with new pre-lagg`d type, even fitting a larger size if you keep running out of hot water.
Just one more question beeing as your tank is in the loft is this a fortic type cylinder ??.

 

[lauy]

Hi. Thanks for advice. Never thought about relocating boiler to loft because hardly ever go up there, it's a bit of a bad state. I'm not sure what type cylinder just know its quite big and green. I will try leaving hot water on constant and see if boiler shuts off.....when I tried it last it stayed on for a while and thought I was just wasting gas. How long would it take to get the cylinder to that temp?

 

[stevetheplumber]

cylinder should heat up in 30 to 45 mins from cold