warning for regin premier users

[johnnyplumb]

this came up the other day, I was in the merchants and a guy seen my regin premier gauge hanging up in the van,
he said, you shouldn't be using that gauge, so I said wtf you talking about. he muttered something about not using it with air, but it didn't make much sense, so I done some digging, and here's what I found

There's no problem using these gauges with gas as a medium, but the same cant be said when carrying out a tightness test using air, ie new installs with no meter etc.

now for the boring stuff

every gauge has a grm, ie water 0.5, electronic 0.1, sg 1.

test medium has a constant known as f1, ie f1 gas = 42 and f1 air = 67

ttd is calculated with grm x iv x f1

max domestic iv = 0.035

so water gauge using air = 0.5 x 0.035 x 67 = 1.17 seconds
& regin premier gauge using air = 1 x 0.035 x 67 = 2.34 seconds

the regin gauge would be fine if we allowed 2.34 secs as test duration but considering we use
2 mins, then tightness test would fail

I know it's a lot of pyish, but it's all true pyish, hahaha

 

[galaxy_plumbing]

i think you should have a nap its too late for this

 

[AWheating]

if your testing new or carcus then you can have no drop, no matter the test duration.

 

[snowhead]

With a less than max I.V, Regin will work.

Type of gauge always has to be taken into account in Commercial when you are dealing with several cubic metres I.V, not fractions of cu mtrs.

 

[johnnyplumb]

With a less than max I.V, Regin will work.

Type of gauge always has to be taken into account in Commercial when you are dealing with several cubic metres I.V, not fractions of cu mtrs.

yea this true,

Iv in excess of 0.0298 would require a water gauge or an electronic if you wanna be posh

1 x 0.0298 x 67 = 1.9966, which is under 2 mins, so ok

 

[johnnyplumb]

it's all in ige/up/1 or whatever you call it,
I've no access but someone on here must be able to check it

 

[Ermintrude]

Well your wrong then

Up1 is commercial

Igup/1b is domestic

 

[beesley121]

Can someone explain what the hell he is talking about!

 

[beesley121]

I'm far from thick but he just has not explained it right.

At least i can sleep tonight and just check this thread in the morning incase of further developments. Will be might :nono: if I find out my gauge that cos my £50 doesn't give me the right reading!!

 

[tamz]

Johnnyboy is well off on this. Whoever told him that is talking shyte.

I agree with Simon. Stick to UP-1B and you won't go wrong.

 

[johnnyplumb]

Ignore everything he has said

He is scaring domestic gas engineers and there's no need for it


It's a guy just over thinking things

You ignore it all at your peril,
i've given you all the facts and figures to back things up,

what bit you not understand ?

I dont see any figures coming from you,
it's easy to make statements but lets see some hard evidence.

So lets have it, you've got centre stage, now's your big chance,
just make sure it's good :teeth_smile:

 

[johnnyplumb]

Johnnyboy is well off on this. Whoever told him that is talking shyte.

I agree with Simon. Stick to UP-1B and you won't go wrong.

haha, I don't agree tamz,
I don't mind being proven wrong though,

i'll be the first to hold my hands up if that's the case :disappointed:

 

[Killy Bing]

If you're doing it on commercial why would you use gravity specific or a water gauge?

For the reduction of time its logical to just go digital?

 

[Mike Jackson]

I've e-mailed Regin and asked for their input on the discussion.

 

[snowhead]

If you're doing it on commercial why would you use gravity specific or a water gauge?

For the reduction of time its logical to just go digital?

That assumes you have a digital manometer that has an override for battery saving switch off and that you remember to set it not to switch off.

 

[Dotty]

That assumes you have a digital manometer that has an override for battery saving switch off and that you remember to set it not to switch off.

And that it's regularly calibrated.

 

[snowhead]

And that it's regularly calibrated.

Reminds me, I must get my Regin calibrated.,.

And why do Regin sell you a 50ltr plastic bottle with 0.000001ltr top up fluid in it???

 

[gassafe]

I topped my regin up with a lil bit of water a few weeks back, it didn't like it!!

My van got robbed since then, so I had to buy a new regin anyway lol!! No more water!

 

[Mike Jackson]

Reminds me, I must get my Regin calibrated.,.

And why do Regin sell you a 50ltr plastic bottle with 0.000001ltr top up fluid in it???

The same reason that you get a hooooooooooooj bag when you buy a bag of polyplumb inserts. It's cheaper to buy large quantities of one size than small quantities of loads of different sizes.

 

[stevetheplumber]

I topped my regin up with a lil bit of water a few weeks back, it didn't like it!!

My van got robbed since then, so I had to buy a new regin anyway lol!! No more water!

think weve all tried that and found it doesnt work lol

 

[beesley121]

think weve all tried that and found it doesnt work lol

I haven't but I know not too now for definite lol

 

[tamz]

haha, I don't agree tamz,
I don't mind being proven wrong though,

i'll be the first to hold my hands up if that's the case :disappointed:

You can't apply commercial regulations to a domestic scenario It is like comparing apples and oranges and you are assuming a regin premier has a grm of 1 like some other high sg gauges used testing big stuff. If that were the case you can't use it on domestic at all.
I had written a reply there but rubbed it out as this is in the public forum.
Your calc is for a new installation testing to igeup1 which does not apply to domestic.
Do your calc again for an existing installation to the same stds and see what ttd's you come up with purely for your own information. It might surprise you.

 

[johnnyplumb]

Due to the resolution of the water gauge on a 2 minutue test the 2.4 ish seconds is not going to make a blind bit if difference.

Have you sat your up1 and up1a exams. I have and I know how to TT properly.

So don't go confusing domestic installers about their TT

And if you want any further confirmation. Ask Gassafe. They'll back me up

If we are taking commercial I will do it in a private conversation and explain why it is also acceptable but due to other maths you have to do is doable

hahaha as domestic engineers, your not supposed to know that it's not suitable, as your not qualified to know

 

[johnnyplumb]

You can't apply commercial regulations to a domestic scenario It is like comparing apples and oranges and you are assuming a regin premier has a grm of 1 like some other high sg gauges used testing big stuff. If that were the case you can't use it on domestic at all.
I had written a reply there but rubbed it out as this is in the public forum.
Your calc is for a new installation testing to igeup1 which does not apply to domestic.
Do your calc again for an existing installation to the same stds and see what ttd's you come up with purely for your own information. It might surprise you.

If you dont use grm x iv x f1, what do you use

if the grm of the premier gauge is not 1, it'll be 0.95 or thereabouts,
so you would still be over the 2 minutes ttd anyway.

Perhaps we should ask mr regin how he worked out that the gauge was suitable,
maybe they have got it wrong.

 

[beesley121]

I think one of you commercial lads should tell us what this is all about. I'm not interested in weather the regin guage works or not but your talking about stuff that I cant grasp as your abbreviating words.

whats grm?
IV I'm guessing is installation volume
what's f1?

and what exactly are you doing by crunching these numbers?

An an explanation is appreciated

 

[johnnyplumb]

lol, why you confused, it's easy ,

grm is gauge readable movement

f1 is the medium that your testing with ie gas or air

who started all of this anyway :snore:

 

[tamz]

If you dont use grm x iv x f1, what do you use

2.8 GRM x IV x RV-1 x F1 or 0.047 GRM x IV x F1 depending where the pipe is which i'm not going to explain cos i'm off out for a pint.

 

[johnnyplumb]

should have explained first,
might have bought you that pint :17:

I'm off to see the match anyway m/well v celtic 7.45

 

[johnnyplumb]

Your a nob!

Showing your immaturity with that comment, me thinks
are you hoping that i'll take the bait ?

Trusted advisor as well

would be better to just answer the question that was asked,
but I guess it's easier to just say 'your a nob'

 

[Mike Jackson]

Okay, time to put this nonsense to bed.

Rather than arguing to and fro, as I said above, I e-mailed Regin and asked them whether I should worry about using my premier gauge (and my J gauge for that matter). They have responded by sending me a statement from the manufacturer of the premier gauge.

GRM (Gauge readable movement) in Regin Premier gauges

To alleviate some confusion regarding the ‘grm’ of Regin Premier gauges using SG1.88 manometer fluid, the ‘grm’ of a water U-tube is the SAME as that of a Regin Premier manometer, because the arrangement is a ‘J’ gauge style with almost all of the fluid movement in the indicating column.

When a U-tube gauge is pressurised, the fluid rises in one column and falls the same distance in the other. In a ‘J-tube’ gauge however, almost all the fluid movement is in the indicating column, with a small height change in the reservoir section. This means that for a given pressure change in one column, the fluid movement of a High Specific Gravity ‘J’gauge is virtually the same as the movement of water in one column of a U-Tube type gauge.

The statement that the grm of a gauge is dependant only on the SG of the indicating fluid is erroneous for the reasons stated above. This is why the IGEM UPE 1B was altered to allow for higher specific gravity fluids.

In summary, a Regin Premier gauge is suitable for use wherever a water filled U-gauge is suited to the application.

They also expressed concern that anyone would be put off using their products because of erroneous information and thanked me for highlighting peoples worries over the matter.