Search the forum,

Discuss Why oh why little bungalow… in the Central Heating Forum area at PlumbersForums.net

Messages
16
Evening everyone, I’ve got this lovely little bungalow that I’m struggling to get my head around the heating on. It’s a F and E system with 8 radiators, and I’m not really very clued up on central heating, or even plumbing in general, but the whole set up seems quite odd.

The pipe into the main bathroom appears to send down the hot water from above, it then returns the other end, it gets hottest first so I assume that it’s the feed from the boiler, also it’s the only radiator that has a pipe coming from the loft, even though the boiler is on the ground floor, and that’s about the only thing I can be fairly certain of. The rest of the radiators don’t seem to follow any exact pattern, and the ones that get warm pipes first aren’t necessarily the ones where the radiators heat up first.

The most bizarre thing is the hallway radiator, it’s hard to describe but the hot supply seems to go from one pipe to three different radiators, the hallway one, the first living room one which sits parallel to the hallway one, obviously divided by the wall, and one into another room opposite the living room, but in that room the in and out pipes both lead back to the hot supply, and to make things worse the main living room radiator has a TRV fitted to what appears to be the return pipe, and this joins again to the hallway radiator return side.

Now I’ve written all this I’m not even sure what I’m asking really as I know I’ve not given much to go on. I just can’t get all the radiators to work fully, only the main bathroom one seems to be working all the time regardless, the rest are very hit and miss. I want to attempt to balance them but as they seem to change which gets warm first and the pipes disappear through the concrete floor it’s virtually impossible for me to figure out where to go from the bathroom. I can attempt to draw a layout of the house and where the radiators are if that could help but other than that I’m at a bit of a loss guys I’m afraid.

PP
 
Also, I just realised I’ve probably posted this in the wrong section, sorry. If a mod could shift it over that would be great thanks!

PP
 
How old is the pump ?
 
I’m not sure tbh, it’s definitely running but are you aware of any tests I can carry out to see if it’s running correctly? It has 3 stages to it and it’s currently on stage 3. Thank you for your question.

PP
 
Simple way is use an old screwdriver and see if you can stop it eg remove the bleed screw while it’s pumping with medium pressure push the screwdriver in the bleed port and does it stop ?
 
Yes some water might come out so and old towel is recommended
 
Yes some water might come out so and old towel is recommended
Right, sorry for the delay, I’ve finally got around to checking it. The pump can be stopped with quite firm pressure, should it be virtually impossible to stop it when it’s running? If not then I think I applied more than just medium pressure to get it to slow and stop. Thanks again.
 
Right, sorry for the delay, I’ve finally got around to checking it. The pump can be stopped with quite firm pressure, should it be virtually impossible to stop it when it’s running? If not then I think I applied more than just medium pressure to get it to slow and stop. Thanks again.
You will stop it if you do that. It is single phase and runs by magnetic field so a good amount of pressure will stop any domestic pump.
You can test that the pump is free spinning (sounds like it is) and with the right equipment you can test the capacitor (on older pumps) and voltages to prove they are good. Sometimes it is necessary to remove the motor and inspect the impeller if you still think they aren't performing well enough.

This to me sounds like a one pipe system. I am going off your description of connections. If it is a one pipe system then the radiators will work off gravity and the loop will be pumped.

What are the flow and return from the boiler like? What is the temperature difference between the flow out of it and the return back to it?
 
Yes pump sounds ok would try balancing
 
What are the flow and return from the boiler like? What is the temperature difference between the flow out of it and the return back to it?
Me again…Do you mean whilst the boiler is running or once it shuts off? I just got to it as it shut off and it was around a 40° difference between the two, it’s been around 10-15 mins and it’s just sparked up again at around 16-16° difference.
 
Heats up the supply to about 77° then shuts off, at that point I check the difference and it’s about 37-39° difference this time. No idea if that’s any good or not. 😂
 
Check the easy stuff first. Does the expansion tank has an appropriate amount of water and is its float valve working okay? Next, bleed the radiators to get all the 'air' out of the system.
 
Check the easy stuff first. Does the expansion tank has an appropriate amount of water and is its float valve working okay? Next, bleed the radiators to get all the 'air' out of the system.
Hi Chuck, thanks for your reply mate, I’ve checked the expansion system up in the loft, level looks ok and the system adds more water in if I press on the arm, all radiators are bled up as well buddy.
 
I’ve checked the expansion system up in the loft, level looks ok and the system adds more water in if I press on the arm, all radiators are bled up as well buddy.
As it's a vented system, the pipes may be getting clogged up with sludge. Check the copper pipework with a magnet. If there is a significant amount of sludge (magnetite) inside the magnet will be attracted to it. A sludged-up system will normally have brown 'rust' in the expansion tank.
 
As it's a vented system, the pipes may be getting clogged up with sludge. Check the copper pipework with a magnet. If there is a significant amount of sludge (magnetite) inside the magnet will be attracted to it. A sludged-up system will normally have brown 'rust' in the expansion tank.
This is something that I think may be an issue, the tank itself is relatively clean, but as for the age and servicing of the system, whether it’s had cleaner or inhibitor put through it at any point is a mystery, I was considering having someone out to do a power flush on the whole system so I can start fresh and if after that I find it’s a component issue then at least the condition of the whole system can be taken off the suspect list.
 
This is something that I think may be an issue, the tank itself is relatively clean, but as for the age and servicing of the system, whether it’s had cleaner or inhibitor put through it at any point is a mystery, I was considering having someone out to do a power flush on the whole system so I can start fresh and if after that I find it’s a component issue then at least the condition of the whole system can be taken off the suspect list.
If it's an old system then I'd go for a powerflush and possibly a new circulation pump. I've worked on many systems and I've yet to find one that hasn't benefited from a powerflush. Only problem with this is that some people charge extortionate prices for a powerflush. I recently had a customer who paid €800 to get 9 radiators powerflushed and the system was left unbalanced. That's a criminally insane amount for just 9 rads.
 
£800?!? Chuffing Norah I hope it’s nowhere near that! I just can’t seem to make any sense of the system, I can get all of the rads warm, to about 40°, but the only one that gets mega hot is the first one in the bathroom, and when I get the others warm in one room it’s at the cost of another rad in a different room going cold.

What exactly is the purpose of checking the different temperatures of the flow and return to the boiler? Is it to see whether the boiler is shutting off before it’s managed to allow enough time to pass to send hot water to all the rads? If that’s the case would that show that the returns are opened up too far across the whole system allowing the hot water to return quicker to the boiler than it should do?
 
£800?!? Chuffing Norah I hope it’s nowhere near that! I just can’t seem to make any sense of the system, I can get all of the rads warm, to about 40°, but the only one that gets mega hot is the first one in the bathroom, and when I get the others warm in one room it’s at the cost of another rad in a different room going cold.

What exactly is the purpose of checking the different temperatures of the flow and return to the boiler? Is it to see whether the boiler is shutting off before it’s managed to allow enough time to pass to send hot water to all the rads? If that’s the case would that show that the returns are opened up too far across the whole system allowing the hot water to return quicker to the boiler than it should do?
heat loss and efficiency would be the main reason but I'm sure others have different options. the same with balancing the system, some say just balance the flow others say balance flow and return though Danfoss have come out with a new TRV that say leave the return fully open, they even have an app for setting the TRV to the size of the radiators.
All that being said, it sounds to me like you either have a flow issue or the boiler is too small for the system but I don't know what boiler you have or how many radiators you're running. if you're handy with your hands try locking down the smallest radiator in the house and drain it down then take it outside and flush it out with a hose. if there's a lot of sludge in the system you'll know by doing that or like another person said try a magnet on the pipe work. if you do take a rad off and flush with a hose it won't help your problem, I'm only suggesting it so you can see if there's much black iron oxide in the system
 
Cheers Dave, when bleeding the rads in the first place the water was quite murky in places. I’ll have to bite the bullet I think and shop around for a reasonably priced power flush!
 
Ok, I’ve just had a chappy around, he’s checked up and down, had his camera out and checked all around and agrees that there must be a whole load of debris in the system, he has suggested a pre treatment to soften up all the gunk, disturb the rads, fit a filter to the system, clean it all out, but he’s also suggested that the air separator(?) be removed as they can bring their own problems, and also something I didn’t even know was a thing, but to remove the gravity side of the system by fitting a pressure reservoir, which should eliminate so much of the rusty sludge side of things because the system wouldn’t be vented anymore. Mind blown.
 
Ok, I’ve just had a chappy around, he’s checked up and down, had his camera out and checked all around and agrees that there must be a whole load of debris in the system, he has suggested a pre treatment to soften up all the gunk, disturb the rads, fit a filter to the system, clean it all out, but he’s also suggested that the air separator(?) be removed as they can bring their own problems, and also something I didn’t even know was a thing, but to remove the gravity side of the system by fitting a pressure reservoir, which should eliminate so much of the rusty sludge side of things because the system wouldn’t be vented anymore. Mind blown.
sounds like a good starting point. I swear by a powerflush and sometimes pre treat the system if I think it's extremely bad but when a powerflush is done correctly I don't think pre treatment is necessary but that is only an opinion.
Going from a vented system to a pressurized system will certainly help too and a magfilter on the system after powerflushing will keep the system clean. sounds like you have the right man for the job 👌👍
 
I hope so Dave! The quote has come through and it’s more than I wanted or thought I’d have to spend, but I guess it’s supply and demand at this time of year isn’t it.
 
I hope so Dave! The quote has come through and it’s more than I wanted or thought I’d have to spend, but I guess it’s supply and demand at this time of year isn’t it.
I guess it is but prices shouldn't be extortionate either. the price for supplies here in Ireland have gone crazy. not sure if I mentioned before but I had a customer that paid €800 for a powerflush of just 9 radiators and €705 for a kerosene boiler service, 3 weeks later the burner packed up, the motor had gone! I don't know how some people sleep at night charging prices like that.
 
Well for the pretreatment, new chemicals, power flush, new pump, rad vibrating, filter, separator removal, cleaning out all the upstairs tanks he’s quoted £1200 + vat, and if I want to do away with the vented system that will be another £150 + vat. He has excellent reviews and if that’s a fair price then I’m happy to pay it, but I wouldn’t know one way or the other really!
 
Well for the pretreatment, new chemicals, power flush, new pump, rad vibrating, filter, separator removal, cleaning out all the upstairs tanks he’s quoted £1200 + vat, and if I want to do away with the vented system that will be another £150 + vat. He has excellent reviews and if that’s a fair price then I’m happy to pay it, but I wouldn’t know one way or the other really!

Well for the pretreatment, new chemicals, power flush, new pump, rad vibrating, filter, separator removal, cleaning out all the upstairs tanks he’s quoted £1200 + vat, and if I want to do away with the vented system that will be another £150 + vat. He has excellent reviews and if that’s a fair price then I’m happy to pay it, but I wouldn’t know one way or the other really!
for the extra 150+vat I'd get rid of the vented system and go with pressurized. they work much more efficiently. I'm about to suggest the same to a customer today.
 
for the extra 150+vat I'd get rid of the vented system and go with pressurized. they work much more efficiently. I'm about to suggest the same to a customer today.
Yeah I think that’s best, he did warn that there’s more chance of the pipes leaking as the pressure will obviously be greater, it’s extremely unlikely but he said he had to warn me so I can’t go after him if he carries out the work and it happens😂 I was just concerned as to whether the price was in the right area or not.
 
Yeah I think that’s best, he did warn that there’s more chance of the pipes leaking as the pressure will obviously be greater, it’s extremely unlikely but he said he had to warn me so I can’t go after him if he carries out the work and it happens😂 I was just concerned as to whether the price was in the right area or not.
I price a powerflush depending on the size of the system, bigger the system the more work and chemicals needed. he's also replacing the pump and fitting a filter so that will cost a few quid too. I'm working in euros but I recently flushed a 3 story home with 16 radiators for €500. The customer didn't need a new pump and opted out of getting a filter fitted so it was just a powerflush. I can't really comment on someone else's pricing as I haven't seen your system but what I can say is I've worked on houses that have never had decent heat since they were built and after the powerflush and some work to the systems that were just badly fitted from the start people have commented that it's made their house a home. if his work has the same effect then 1200 is a fair price 👌
 
Just to update this, the chappy came out and did the work, pressurised the system, cleaned and flushed and the house has never been so warm! He has said it’s best to leave the heating on constantly at low so we’re trying that for now to see how our consumption goes, he’s turned the hot water down as he said it was running mega hot, but we may need to fettle with that a bit as the water doesn’t seem to get hot enough now, but yeah, big dent in the wallet but the house is spot on now. Thanks for the help and info guys.

Pete
 

Reply to Why oh why little bungalow… in the Central Heating Forum area at PlumbersForums.net

Creating content since 2001. Untold Media.

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Back
Top
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website. For the best site experience please disable your AdBlocker.

I've Disabled AdBlock