Who is right ?

[Jackbooted]

I am a 30 year experienced plumber/ heating engineer, I 'was' Corgi for
6 years but gave up in 05. I have a letter from corgi explaining that as long as I do not work on any gas carrying fitting, or enter the combustion chamber, then I can work on this appliance, eg changing pump,diverter valve etc.

Since Gas Safe took over I thought it wise to contact them and check if anything had changed. The guy at Technical said. You are not allowed to work on ANY part of the boiler as the whole unit is classed as a fitting.

I have asked for written comformation, what do you guys think ?

 

[jpm]

Even for taking off the cover you need to be an RGI

 

[so-solar]

Is every boiler on the market reliant on the front cover to provide a seal?

That is the question! If you answer yes to this then no cover should be removed!
If gas safe say no then we have to listen surely?

 

[flat pack]

they don't know most of the time
i ask some question some time ago and they pass the buck
then the manufacture said the wrong thing the first time then
the 2nd email was right

your right about the plumbing side of the boiler next the iop will need a ticket to repair plumbing in boilers

i hear that if you do nothing wrong in your gas work they cannot take you to court

the whole acs and gas safe need replacing or altering or being fairer to newbie standard and old plumbers.

lets start a union.

 

[Jackbooted]

I also put another case to them.

If ever I put a new system in for my customers, I will hang the boiler,conect up flow & return, safety valve,and condensate pipe.
I then call my Gas Safe pal who connects gas,flue and commissions the boiler,and does the relevant building control documents. He beleives this is legal.

Gas Safe again said this is not allowed. I beleive he is wrong.

 

[david williams]

its more than his jobs worth to say otherwise,perhaps they will try to stop plumbers from entering any premises because there is a gas main in it .i dout you will get a written reply.if you expand that outlook you will be banned from changing a radiator because the pipework is attached to the boiler wich hay its a gas fitting.

 

[migoplumber]

unless your registered, you shouldnt touch the flue, condensate (part of the flue system) or gas pipe.
we all know it happens, but dosnt mean we are doing the right thing, and technically you could get into trouble for it. all though i doubt that will happen.

shaun

 

[Jackbooted]

Migo, what has the condensate drain got to do with the flue system ?? It is quite simply a pathway for the condensate. The pipe,has no effect on combution process and safety.
Even if it was fitted incorectly, the boiler would lock out.

 

[flat pack]

so what we need is a foreman plumber in every town to sign off the boilers.
so all the plumbing plumbers don't need acs/gas safe

the same my mate did 3 mth ago fitted the boiler then rang a gas safe plumber a her tick it off for a ton/100 quid
my mate works for bt

 

[migoplumber]

jack, the condensate is the flue!
draw a picture in your head of the combustion chamber, then stick your hand over the end of the flue, the only place left for the fumes to go is the condensate pipe.

i know it hasnt happended yet, due to all the safety devices, mainly the air pressure switch, but it will one day, and the condensate pipe will be emitting monoxide at its exit point

shaun

 

[Jackbooted]

Shaun

We are really getting away from my original question now. I wanted to know if I was legally allowed to work on a gas boiler as long as i did not interfere with any gas carrying component, or affect the combustion process.

As for the condensate, that runs back into the bottom of the secondary heat exchanger, then enters a sealed trap, before going out through the discharge pipe, again, I don't beleive this has anything to do with the flue.

Jack

 

[radswilldo]

Hope this helps, nearly all modern installation guides state that in the uk the appliance must be installed by a licenced gas engineer and all faults must be corrected by a licensed gas engineer. When taken acs in 06, they made a big point of saying that signing of work that is not yours is illegal, unless it is making an illegal install safe (which wouldn't be as cheap as a ton). I get phone calls from builders/whoever asking me to sign off there illegal installs, i'll tell em to f*** off etc.

 

[Puddle]

When you repair a washing machine,tv set,micro wave or a boiler
When you have finished you have to check the appliance is working correctly, how you can do that when you are not allowed to test half of it
And the confusion show over the condensate pipework shows you have to be qualified

On the subject about unregistered gas plumbers not being able to put a boiler on the wall and connect all water pipes and then get a reg operative to fit flue,gas,condensate,electrics,commition ect,I agree this is wrong not to allow
and very unfair
And if the powers that be took a case like above to court,think it would get thrown straight out,maybe thats what is needed

 

[Jackbooted]

Sorry mig, don't agree with you there, condensate is gathered at the bottom of the secondary heat exchanger, it then travels into a fixed trap before discharging out the pipe, how does the flue come into it ?

 

[migoplumber]

there not my rules jack, they are just the rules.
one of the practical assesments i had last year was to point out the faults on a part of the flue system, next my assessor passed me a piece of condensate pipe that wasnt glue together, i looked puzzled at first, pointed out the unglued fitting, and then quized the man about his phrasing of the "flue sytem" he then gave me the answer i stated in my last post.
still unbelieving i spoke to corgi who confirmed the same. condensate is flue due to its connection to combustion chamber!

shaun

 

[Bernie2]

I would agree with Migo the condensate is part of the flue system, but the rest of the boiler outside the combustion chamber and gas train isn't as far as I know.

Incidentally will we now need a registered Plumber to connect up the water main? A registered spark to plug the boiler in and another Plumber to do the pipe work, a GaSafe fitter to fit the gas.

Its ridiculous.

 

[newbie1]

migo is spot on her the condensate is regarded as part of the flue..check the gas regs if unsure
the point here is if you are a plumber and you want to work on boilers then do your acs as the first thing you do on entering a premises to work on any gas appliance is do a tightness test as if there was a problem later on and you havnt the customer or hse can then claim you created a fault/disturbed gas fitting etc
1/enter premises tightness test
2/before leaving tightness test
and verify with customer

hypothetical situ
you enter change non gas related part and a leak occurs for whatever reason pipework disturbed or just sheer coincidence you are not classed as a competent person and they take you to court

 

[Jackbooted]

Thank You all for your opinion, I will let you know what Gas Safe say If they reply to my letter.

 

[stevetheplumber]

unless your registered, you shouldnt touch the flue, condensate (part of the flue system) or gas pipe.
we all know it happens, but dosnt mean we are doing the right thing, and technically you could get into trouble for it. all though i doubt that will happen.

shaun

following that line of thought if the condensate if connected via a sigot to the sink trap then the trap is now a part of the flue system can anyone tell me the gc number for a washiung machine trap?
ive also often wondered if all makes of oveflow pipe have actually been tested for the conveying of flue gas which in an extreme case could occur

 

[justlead1]

Hi. Basically Jack you pay for the privilege of working on gas, whether its ego or necessity. My experience of the scheme suggests it just another tax. Having moved to a rural area and taking with me and renewing corgi registration, courses etc. It become apparent that it did not make financial sense. From say 25 gas installations a year to about three in the rural area. Coupled with the fact that the coaching that takes place when candidates take their tests, leaves much to question the system. I liked the idea posted earlier, which suggests roving expert signing off installations. There is a massive industry grown around gas now and i feel that those who are involved in it every day of the week (boiler repair, etc) would be better to serve the rest of the plumbing heating industry by over seeing installations charging a fee and signing them off. It would benefit the tradesmen and greatly reduce the administration and charges imposed by corgi / gas safe (less people with their nose in the trough)

 

[Jackbooted]

Don't think that would work Justinlead, what would happen if mr plumber blew up the house due to his bad gas work, before Gas Safe man could come round and sign off.

Still comes back to my original question, I do not work on ANY gas carrying part, or interfere with any part that effects the combution process.

So why can I not hang a boiler, and connect the flow and return.

 

[jonathanb]

I feel your pain but times change as do regs and it's the law, so i'm afraid get with it like the rest of us who are RGI's and have to pay our subs and keep up to date with whatever quangos come our way. Gas safe, unlike the dogs appear to be taking a hardline with lots of prosecutions and people going to jail for unregistered installers antics.
Also if you got back up to date with all things gas and renewed your registration you would have known about the condensate being part of the flue system and the dangers of modern air gas ratio valves if not set up correctly. I'm sure a man of your calibre will have no probs getting back up to date and registered.

 

[newbie1]

if you want to work on boilers do you acs if not specialise in another area
imho anyone signing off someone elses work and taking a bunger should have their reg revoked
thank god gas safe are policing this a bit better its really simple if you want to work on a gas fed appliance then get your ticket
seem to be a few threads at the moment with the why cant i work on boilers without doing my acs
quite simply because the rules are to work on a gas fitting/appliance you need to be gas safe registered and have proved competency to a recognized body not your opinion of your competency

 

[Jackbooted]

newbi1

Yes newbie 'gas fitting' , Please show me the relevant regulation that say's 'Gas Appliance'

 

[newbie1]

anything that has a gas pipe feeding it its that simple
like i said if you want to work on gas do the acs if not dont
noone is forced to be a rgi its a choice and there are thousands of plumbers quite happy not doing acs again their choice
there really is no difference between a gas fitting and a gas appliance

 

[bobpape]

How come the threat of breaking the law prevails as the main point in the debate,
Are we saying that gas safe operatives are a section of society that do not break the law,

They never commit a driving offence or any of the thousands of other
criminal offences on the current UK statute books,

One chap recently got fined £300.00 and made a criminal for leaving his dustbin lid 3 inches open,

Very soon every one will be a criminal,

This government has introduced over 3000 new laws, but not to worry
gas fitters wont break any of them, yeah right,


Any way after completing an installation what is there to stop an "unlicenced"
plumber from employing a licenced gas fitter to conduct a Landlords Safety Check,

 

[newbie1]

nothing to stop them at all if a rgi wants to risk it having his reg taken away thats a choice they make but should a problem occur its him that will be prosecuted

 

[Puddle]

Any way after completing an installation what is there to stop an "unlicenced"
plumber from employing a licenced gas fitter to conduct a Landlords Safety Check,

From the unregistered plumbers side,this could turn out to be a big problem if found out and with todays paper trail,there is a good chance he will
There is no problem with the above for reg gas plumbers , can carry out a landlord inspection on any installation new or old and all may find all be ok apart from the paper trail
However there is a problem with a unregistered plumber,baker or candle stick maker employing a registered gas plumber to register a boiler,hob or fire and trying to get them to fill in ther appliance log books for items they have not fitted
I have done landlord checks on new systems for estate agents however if no paperwork with appliances or not filled in ,I make a note on inspection form and recommend registration of appliances be checked,if I have cause to believe or know appliances have been installed by a non registered person,I would cap off supply and label id and report
And now we know gas safe are following up reports,more and more reg plumbers will start to report suspected unregistered works

 

[flat pack]

so what happens if a house goes to auction with new new boiler hobb oven
fire all with no history
the new owner does what,

 

[Puddle]

Well if house goes to auction, it would be auctioned with no papers and sell for less,which is probably why it is being auctioned and not on the general market, its not just gas works, its new electrical works, new windows, building planning permition ect paper trail
if someone paying cash or has the finance secured on other items, it is up to him what he wants to do, if he is saving alot he may decide to buy and take the risk
Some people may think it’s all working ok, no problem but that’s because they think they can get away with it, if I said to them would you buy a house at auction with an extension just built with no planning permition, they would probably say no,other paperwork is just as important
The main control comes from the establishment, it always has, not the governing body, if people can or think they can get away with it they will, human nature
But what is happening is mortgage companies will not lead against properties without the correct paperwork,Loan companies will not give a loan against works if not carried out by correct people, insurance companies will not insure or if they do will not pay out without correct paperwork provided, councils and now alot of estate agents will not rent out without all correct paperwork ect
Thus the market is getting smaller for unregistered people and properties, in ten years time, it will be unthinkable not being registered at what you do and it is the private sector who will enforce it,due to finacial gain,by demanding the correct paperwork at the beginning and end of works, ,not the governing body, they will just run the system and prosecute the few that slip through

 

[flat pack]

or what can happen is some one will buy at auction then phone rgi
and get it sign off