What did i do wrong?

[SimonG]

No plastic on a secondary return.

 

[king of pipes]

No plastic on a secondary return.

That's a good point Simon there are ways of doing it but I am not going to complicate the post, as a medium sized family home with say 2 bathrooms , cloakroom , kitchen and utility room there's no need other than to avoid drawing amount of cold water to the point of use even this can be minimised with careful planning . All the best kop

 

[oz-plumber]

Why would you bother running from the breach to the shower head in copper when the rest of the system is in plastic?
It would be the only part of a plumbing system that is never under any real pressure.

 

[Luggsey]

Why would you bother running from the breach to the shower head in copper when the rest of the system is in plastic?
It would be the only part of a plumbing system that is never under any real pressure.

Simon please explain this to me, I'm a sparky!
The house is big, five bed, 150m2 ground floor, I obtained a bronze impeller pump to work off sensors in bathroom and en suites.
I don't know this reg about plastic on returns, can you please expand on that for me?
Thanks.
Paul.

 

[SimonG]

Now then Paul. All the plastic pipe manufacturers dont warranty their pipes for domestic hot water secondary returns. You need it in copper or mlcp (plastic with aluminium sheath inside).

 

[Luggsey]

Now then Paul. All the plastic pipe manufacturers dont warranty their pipes for domestic hot water secondary returns. You need it in copper or mlcp (plastic with aluminium sheath inside).

Ok are we talking about oxygen barrier like underfloor heating pipe?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Any plastic pipe isn’t suitable for permanent temp eg secondary return

this mlcp MLCP Multilayer Plumbing & Heating Pipe - https://www.bhiveunderfloor.co.uk/mlcp-multilayer-plumbing--heating-pipe-4-c.asp

or copper only

 

[Luggsey]

Any plastic pipe isn’t suitable for permanent temp eg secondary return

this mlcp MLCP Multilayer Plumbing & Heating Pipe - https://www.bhiveunderfloor.co.uk/mlcp-multilayer-plumbing--heating-pipe-4-c.asp

or copper only

I don't doubt you are correct, I just checked JG website...
What dosent make sense is you can use this pipe for central heating return?
I will give it some serious thought but I would keep the DHW temperature low and the return would only be in use for short periods as it's on sensors....
Hmmm.

 

[gmartine]

You need to use MLCP or copper because a secondary return is a continuously circulating HW system, in other words if you use plastic pipe because of the constant heat being absorbed it'll droop like you do after a beery night.

Edit posted sametime OP's last post.
You're using PIR's so secondary return is switched on and off when entering and exiting bathroom/washroom?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I don't doubt you are correct, I just checked JG website...
What dosent make sense is you can use this pipe for central heating return?
I will give it some serious thought but I would keep the DHW temperature low and the return would only be in use for short periods as it's on sensors..
Hmmm.

Its more down to the oxygen in the pipe degrading the inner walls

 

[Luggsey]

You need to use MLCP or copper because a secondary return is a continuously circulating HW system, in other words if you use plastic pipe because of the constant heat being absorbed it'll droop like you do after a beery night.

Edit posted sametime OP's last post.
You're using PIR's so secondary return is switched on and off when entering and exiting bathroom/washroom?

That's the plan with a temperature sensor at the end of the return before the tank so I can set it to 'just' warm up, can't see a problem tbh but I will check with JG tech when I get chance.

 

[sxdave]

View attachment 43544

So, first plumbing job in years, bought solder, flux and MAP gas as shown.
15mm copper pipe, shined up, fluxed, absolute failure!
I'm a sparks by trade and solder a lot but not with a flame.
Am I right to assume map is far to hot for an amateur to work with, I cooked the pipe!
Advice where I'm going wrong please, I cant afford a plumber!
Cheers.
Paul.
[automerge]1587827746[/automerge]


As a follow up, these bits are for a shower mixer, can I use JG speedfit for the link to the shower head with the supplied compression fitting or must I use a plastic fitting?View attachment 43545

JG Speedfit have a doc. 'Plastic Push-fit for plumbing and heating Technical Information', available on JG website. This gives details of how to use the Speedfit in compression fittings. Hope this helps. If you cannot find it I will try to do so and post the URL.

 

[SimonG]

https://www.johnguest.com/speedfit/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/08/RWC-JG-Speedfit-Technical-Specs-Guide.pdf

Page 15 bottom left hand corner.

 

[Luggsey]

https://www.johnguest.com/speedfit/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/08/RWC-JG-Speedfit-Technical-Specs-Guide.pdf

Page 15 bottom left hand corner.

That's a good read cheers, will have a look for more tips later on.
It does say 'continuous' pumped systems which this wont be because of sensors and temperature sensor of course?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Still doesn’t matter same situation no go

 

[Scott_D]

Have you fitted the bronze pump and secondary return pipe or is it to be done at a later date?

 

[king of pipes]

Blimey it's kicked off on here a bit a difference of opinion is good gives us a healthy debate, we all have our ways of working none of us do a job the same way, is it right or wrong I like to have a open mind none of us know it all , I stand by my opinion no secondary needed place the appropriate sized unvented cylinder central in the property keep pipe runs short as practically possible it will work fine why over complicate things stay safe people . Kop

 

[Jim burnside]

View attachment 43544

So, first plumbing job in years, bought solder, flux and MAP gas as shown.
15mm copper pipe, shined up, fluxed, absolute failure!
I'm a sparks by trade and solder a lot but not with a flame.
Am I right to assume map is far to hot for an amateur to work with, I cooked the pipe!
Advice where I'm going wrong please, I cant afford a plumber!
Cheers.
Paul.
[automerge]1587827746[/automerge]


As a follow up, these bits are for a shower mixer, can I use JG speedfit for the link to the shower head with the supplied compression fitting or must I use a plastic fitting?View attachment 43545

Chrome would look better but the fittings your using will work fine.

 

[Luggsey]

I have a Grundfoss bronze impeller pump, movement sensors in all en suites already fitted. I will fit a pipe stat by the pump set to a low but warm temperature.
The pump will only run for short periods evenings and of course mornings.
[automerge]1588056728[/automerge]

Blimey it's kicked off on here a bit a difference of opinion is good gives us a healthy debate, we all have our ways of working none of us do a job the same way, is it right or wrong I like to have a open mind none of us know it all , I stand by my opinion no secondary needed place the appropriate sized unvented cylinder central in the property keep pipe runs short as practically possible it will work fine why over complicate things stay safe people . Kop

I hope not Kop! I have many more hurdles yet!
It's a pressurised tank with solar and solid fuel coils.

 

[king of pipes]

Alarm bells ringing bud please please make sure the cylinder is installed by G3 installer and the heat sources are fitted and connected correctly and they are installed with the correct materials , definitely no speed fit allowed to connect to the cylinder, it's a specialist job to be honest and only those who hold the relevant qualifications can fit and work on these. Regards kop

 

[Luggsey]

Alarm bells ringing bud please please make sure the cylinder is installed by G3 installer and the heat sources are fitted and connected correctly and they are installed with the correct materials , definitely no speed fit allowed to connect to the cylinder, it's a specialist job to be honest and only those who hold the relevant qualifications can fit and work on these. Regards kop

Thanks Kop, I'm furlowed at present but work for a large property maintenance and building organisation where I normally ask one of the gas or plumber lads to help out.
I will be getting everything checked and signed off, I have to for the council, but that dosent stop me doing the bulk of the pipework etc.
We went for the pressurised system as we were advised anything less would mean poor hot water pressure in a big house.
Cheers for the continued advice everyone, it is appreciated!

 

[king of pipes]

Hmmmm agreed a pressurised system is the way to go but it needs to be fitted and commissioned by a approved installer the benchmark completed and signed of with building control I am no longer qualified for solar or solid fuel but I am G3 and Gas safe others on here will have to advise you on the other heat sources. Kop

 

[Luggsey]

Hmmmm agreed a pressurised system is the way to go but it needs to be fitted and commissioned by a approved installer the benchmark completed and signed of with building control I am no longer qualified for solar or solid fuel but I am G3 and Gas safe others on here will have to advise you on the other heat sources. Kop

The overheat requriment is likely a rad in the loft with a valve dropping open on power failure. The Bulgarian solid fuel stove (CE for pressurised systems) also has a cold water quench valve as well as the usual over pressure valves. Its proved massively expensive for the solar and solid fuel, I hope it's as good as we expect it to be!

 

[oz-plumber]

Your system design is starting to sound like a Legionella breeding ground.

- Having sensors on the return to only start the pumps.
At what temperature do you wish this to be?

For Legionella protection, the hot water secondary return system should be run at 60C minimum.
If you have long periods of lower temperature water, you run the risk of Legionella breeding.

There are also a heap of other items that you have to concern yourself with, with installing secondary returns.

I don't want to sound harsh, but you are getting out of your depth, really quickly, on this one.

 

[Luggsey]

Your system design is starting to sound like a Legionella breeding ground.

- Having sensors on the return to only start the pumps.
At what temperature do you wish this to be?

For Legionella protection, the hot water secondary return system should be run at 60C minimum.
If you have long periods of lower temperature water, you run the risk of Legionella breeding.

There are also a heap of other items that you have to concern yourself with, with installing secondary returns.

I don't want to sound harsh, but you are getting out of your depth, really quickly, on this one.

I do actually have a legionnaire disinfection qualification from a previous life!
There would be no standing water in the system for more then a few hours?

 

[oz-plumber]

With your Electrical License, Legionnaire disinfection qualification, and your DIY Plumbing Skills, you should have no problems in completing the tasks that you require.

You also have a knack of reading and interpreting manufacturers specifications to suit your requirements - which is different from the way that plumbers read and interpret them.
A simple phone call to the pipe manufacturer would answer your 'doubts'

Good luck with the project

 

[Roy_66]

I'm also a kind of sparks by trade, but retired.

Used to be fine years with lead and propane.

Took me much longer to learn again, and only managed it with the kind help of all the folks here on the forum. See you have lots of answers, I've only scanned those, but suggest:

1. What torch are you using for 15mm copper. If it's a Rothenberger Superfire with turbo "swirl" tip, then that standard tip is too powerful. There is a smaller "fine tip" one you can change to for 15mm work.

2. With lead free it's much harder to get into the sweet spot of melt but not burning. Buy a bag of elbows and practice. Warm up gently by moving the torch around, then (the tricky bit) learn to back off the torch, to stay in the melt zone while you wipe on the solder to each side. Left handed torch may be best if you are right handed.

3. (The one that fooled me) I still got porous looking joints until I switched solder brand to Fry's powerflow. Don't ask what I was using.

4. Wash out with hot water afterwards, and clean flux off outside (you know all that)

The alternative "blast it" method may work if you are lucky, but it's worth learning the careful method. Pros are skilled enough to do either method, as the job requires.

For the plastic, I wouldn't use on the shower, assuming rest of house is copper. I noticed the burned mats (too much heat). Put an old piece of tin behind the work, but burn off the paint outside first standing up wind. Perhaps you can make soldered assemblies on the bench, then fit to house with compression fittings (ok, we think we can do clanky stuff too).

Best of luck,
Roy

 

[Luggsey]

I'm also a kind of sparks by trade, but retired.

Used to be fine years with lead and propane.

Took me much longer to learn again, and only managed it with the kind help of all the folks here on the forum. See you have lots of answers, I've only scanned those, but suggest:

1. What torch are you using for 15mm copper. If it's a Rothenberger Superfire with turbo "swirl" tip, then that standard tip is too powerful. There is a smaller "fine tip" one you can change to for 15mm work.

2. With lead free it's much harder to get into the sweet spot of melt but not burning. Buy a bag of elbows and practice. Warm up gently by moving the torch around, then (the tricky bit) learn to back off the torch, to stay in the melt zone while you wipe on the solder to each side. Left handed torch may be best if you are right handed.

3. (The one that fooled me) I still got porous looking joints until I switched solder brand to Fry's powerflow. Don't ask what I was using.

4. Wash out with hot water afterwards, and clean flux off outside (you know all that)

The alternative "blast it" method may work if you are lucky, but it's worth learning the careful method. Pros are skilled enough to do either method, as the job requires.

For the plastic, I wouldn't use on the shower, assuming rest of house is copper. I noticed the burned mats (too much heat). Put an old piece of tin behind the work, but burn off the paint outside first standing up wind. Perhaps you can make soldered assemblies on the bench, then fit to house with compression fittings (ok, we think we can do clanky stuff too).

Best of luck,
Roy

Thanks Roy, the whole house will be pretty much plastic, I know plumbers hate it but unless I use it I cant proceed...
I got some propane for my copy Rothenberger torch so I'll try as you suggested.
Cheers.

 

[Roy_66]

Thanks Roy, the whole house will be pretty much plastic, I know plumbers hate it but unless I use it I cant proceed...
I got some propane for my copy Rothenberger torch so I'll try as you suggested.
Cheers.

Will be interested to see how you get on (others also use propane, and for 15mm copper its prob the best choice formus amateurs). I went MAPP because I wanted to be able to solder things like brass drain valves and larger sizes e.g 22mm, 28mm etc. which I have done. Hope you can progress the project. I do have plastic in the garage (with drain system for any freezing weather. It does need more pipe support. The clever thhing for new houses would be not to bury pipes behind fixed walls, then it would not matter. Good plastic prob better than badly fitted copper.

 

[gmartine]

As an exercise split a length of copper pipe cut into fitting sized sections, clean and flux then slide onto cleaned pipe to simulate fittings, practice heating with your MAP or propane torch dabing the pipe with your solder to get a feel for when the pipe is hot enough.

It's very easy to cook the solder and overheat the fittings with MAP, very easy...as an indicator the copper tends to tarnish as it reaches temp so it's very useful to look out for. Don't worry about making it super neat, just ensure you've got a good capiliary action by feeding the joint with enough solder at the right temp.

Don't forget that the solder will follow the flux so you dont want flux much outside the joint and it can help to use the end of the solder wire like a brush by wiping it across the lip of the fitting, that can initiate the solder melting into capiliary when dabbing on the one spot doesn't. Hope that helps.