water meter, megaflow and stopcock issue

[tomjerry]

Ok title might be a catch all but hoping some can offer me advice?:smiley2:

We recently moved to a new house which has a megaflow system and I can see the mains is served by a blue pipe. The house also has a water meter.

Recently the water company called and visited saying they believed our water usage was high (2 adults and a baby, so not likely) and that the meter is turning despite no water being consumed in the house. Ok, so they said they would dig up the street to check there are no leaks there (planned for next week), but I think this will be unlikely. Anyway so I turned the stopcock off and checked the meter, it was still turning, so does this mean there is a leak somewhere on my property, if there is, it is not obvious. The strange thing however, when i switched off the stopcock, water from all taps stopped hot and cold, except the cold water tap on the kitchen sink - it was going full pelt with no view of stopping! How can that be, is it something to do with the way Megaflow is plumbed? I can see the blue pipe coming from the ground to the stopcock after which the mains pipe goes to the Megaflow cyclinder via water softner device.

So in all I am baffled:
1. Why is the meter turning, when no water is being used or no obvious leaks appear?
2. Why shutting the stopcock does not switch off the cold water tap in the kitchen?
3. Are the two items related, suspect they are?

any help or guidance in this matter would be greatly appreciated.

btw, we have been there 3 months, have had 1 water bill for £90 (which seemed a lot) but this was loaded with some annual standing charge. I think the next bill will be in 6 months time. Still it sounds like a lot!

cheers

 

[TomLane]

Can you post a picture of the meter & the valves that you turned off?

It is odd that the meter should still run once the main stop tap is switched off.

Have you tried the stop tap outside of your property?

 

[tomjerry]

I am at work now, but will post a picture this evening when I get back home.

I think the outside stop tap needs a key which I dont have. Water company are coming back next week to check their side for leaks, so will ask them to turn it off outside to see if that makes any difference

 

[TomLane]

You should be able to lift the cover to the stop tap using a screwdriver in the small hole & lever it up.

The actual tap itself may be some way down inside the chamber but within arms reach if you are able to get to the floor & put your arm inside.

Keep us updated.

 

[chris watkins]

Where is the water meter located & where is the stop valve that you have been using so far ? You should really have one valve that turns off the whole property but in does sound like it has been tee'd off some where before the one you have been using.

 

[tomjerry]

So I switched it off from the street and the dial stopped turning on the meter and cold water also stopped flowing from the kitchen sink. So clearly it works from there. What is it not clear is what happens between there and the stopcock? could the main be split somehow with going to the cold water tap and the other to the stopcock.. below are pics of meter and internal stopcock

 

[Ermintrude]

If that's a water softener it's a dedicated supply of non softened water for cooking purposes?

 

[chris watkins]

If the meter stops turning when turned off from that white handle next to it but starts again when turned on with all appliances in the house off, who have a leak on your side which you should get investigated. Check your water softener, maybe just try putting it to by-pass & turning it off just in case it is open to back wash?

 

[dgt]

There's a high probability that you have got a split or damaged water main somewhere between the road side stopcock and the one in your house, hence the water meter continuously running. Regards you tap in the house running, that's a puzzle, although you should have a water source in your property that does not pass through any sort of treatment i.e your kitchen tap. Saying that it should turn off with the main stopcock inside the house.

 

[Megaflo-Experts]

Sounds like they may have tee'd off the blue MDPE pipe to supply your kitchen tap. Maybe that was the easy solution to to install the water softener!
From your stopcock does the water go straight into the water softener? i.e no tee off's before the softener?

This may explain why your kitchen tap still works after turning off the stopcock, but not why the meter still turns when the stopcock is off.

Does sound like a leak in your supply pipe!

 

[lame plumber]

probally the t where it goes to the kitchen tap before your main stopcock inside thats leaking away to itself. get it sorted pronto or your bill is going to hurt. i hope you read your meter on arrival or you may be paying for leakage prior to moving in as well

 

[tomjerry]

The blue pipe goes straight to the water softener with no tee or split off. Tbh I am not entirely clear how the softener works. I can see it has inlet from the mains and then an outlet to the main megaflow tank, with a couple of waste pipes coming out from the softener itself. Both inlet and outlet have on/off levers on them. It is not clear to me if the softener serves the entire house or if there a non softened tap that does not go through the softener. It might be that the kitchen tap is direct from the mains hence it does not switch off when I turn the stopcock off. I think the only way to truly find out will be to lift the tiled kitchen floor....sigh! What do you mean by back wash on the softener? I think will have to get the supply pipe on the property checked once the water company have checked their side.

Thanks

 

[Ermintrude]

U can trace pipes easily without destruction . Cat and signal genny.

 

[AWheating]

there is no seperate stop tap to the kitchen sink hidden away somewhere? It seems your main is tee'd underground to give you a seperate feed to the sink. Either way you must have a leak on your water main pipework somewhere. I would contact the builder first, ask them how the main was run to the sink and inform them they will most likely have to come back and find and fix the leak if its on your property and importantly cover the cost of the higher water bill.

 

[TomLane]

Where are you based?

Perhaps there's a plumber on the forum here who may be able to come & have a look at it for you. There's no substitute for seeing a problem as it is in front of you rather than having it explained in writing.

If you don't wish to use a plumber from the forum perhaps there is one you've used previously that you are happy to use again or someone you know can recommend one to you.

It does unfortunately sound like there is a leak somewhere. Look for tell take signs of damp/water etc. Hopefully for you though it isn't a leak & you get it sorted soon.

 

[AWheating]

Where are you based?

Perhaps there's a plumber on the forum here who may be able to come & have a look at it for you. There's no substitute for seeing a problem as it is in front of you rather than having it explained in writing.

If you don't wish to use a plumber from the forum perhaps there is one you've used previously that you are happy to use again or someone you know can recommend one to you.

It does unfortunately sound like there is a leak somewhere. Look for tell take signs of damp/water etc. Hopefully for you though it isn't a leak & you get it sorted soon.

it a new house so should have a 10 year warranty from somebody like the nhbc and should have a 2year warranty from the plumbing company really. its not wear and tear so it will come under both.

 

[tomjerry]

We are based in northwood in nw London. It's a 1940s house. Unfortunately I have no knowledge who the builder was as the extension was built by the previous owner who has been less than helpful. One thing I have is homeserve cover for the supply pipe. I have not called them yet, but hopefully that should cover costs although let's see how good they are.

Ermintrude - can you explain a little how pipes can be traced without destruction?

thanks

 

[Ermintrude]

See the web link ...

http://www.files.wellershirecentre.co.uk/guides/CATGENNY_CAT&Genny_User_Guide.pdf

Basically hire it, clip to metal above stop tap and off I go.

 

[tomjerry]

See the web link ...

http://www.files.wellershirecentre.co.uk/guides/CATGENNY_CAT&Genny_User_Guide.pdf

Basically hire it, clip to metal above stop tap and off I go.

So water company checked the supply pipe to the boundary and turns out there was a leak there, so that's now been fixed. That's a relief as I was expecting disruption on the property to find the leak. As for the tap running when the stopcock is off, I can only deduce that it is teed off from the mains supply.

Thanks all for your help

 

[Frelon]

It may be that instead of turning off the mains stopcock you may have been turning off the water softener inlet valve, which only turns off supply of hard water to the softener. From the following diagram of a water softener bypass you will see that there should still be a supply of water for drinking purposes with this inlet valve turned off.

tomjerry, looks like you need to mug up on water softeners. Lucky man to have one installed but you need to keep it supplied with salt for the softening process.

First stop is the manufacturer of your softener

http://www.monarchwater.co.uk/htm/images/diagram-bypass2.jpg

 

[Frelon]

OK, tomjerry, did we get a result on this? We are all wanting to know the outcome! Why was the tap still running with the stopcock off?