water help no hot water

[jpbroad1970]

No worries, it’s why we’re here. I hope you get sorted, can you let us know how you get on?

Yeah I will post the results, they should come tomorrow or Tuesday.

 

[jpbroad1970]

Well another 5 hours with a different plumber and guess what, no hot water or heating. I'm at work but the Mrs has said they have replaced a load of pipework in the airing cupboard and got some sludgy water out. But it's still coming up flow error. Going to have to come back another day, dread to think on cost of this little lot. Sad times.

 

[Aire]

Well another 5 hours with a different plumber and guess what, no hot water or heating. I'm at work but the Mrs has said they have replaced a load of pipework in the airing cupboard and got some sludgy water out. But it's still coming up flow error. Going to have to come back another day, dread to think on cost of this little lot. Sad times.

When you get home take a pic of the new pipe work, just to keep us updated.

 

[jpbroad1970]

Will do no problems. They were on about new radiators and all sorts Mrs is leaving piles of brown poo everywhere

 

[Aire]

Will do no problems. They were on about new radiators and all sorts Mrs is leaving piles of brown poo everywhere

Why New radiators? If they're sludged up just take them off, give them a flush with hose pipe outside and they'll be fine.

 

[Aire]

Did you ever contact @Brambles about the work? You initially told him you would give your original plumber another chance first but obviously he's been sacked off now.

 

[jpbroad1970]

I haven't yet no, we got the other plumber to fit the 3 way valve then paid him as it was ok for a couple of days then we went away . The Mrs then called the people that service our boiler yearly and to be fair they turned up as promised, even put a job off to do ours. If it's just a case of flushing the rads with a hose pipe that's something I can do easy enough, had rads off before and fitted new ones so sure I can manage that.

 

[Harvest Fields]

If it is sludge will a powerflush not help?

 

[jpbroad1970]

I think that's what it's looking like. They drained water off as per pic.no real metal bits just sludge and mucky water. Their opinion and that's all it is at the moment is as soon as the pump starts to drawer water it's drawing sludge slowing everything down to a stop.

 

[jpbroad1970]

Tall glass what they fetched off

Small glass what I've just drained out of tap off the top of the boiler pipe

 

[spanner]

When it's in hot water on from programme, with cylinder start set to 55-60 boiler should fire. Probably heads gone on actuator or fault with motor or three port wiring

 

[jpbroad1970]

When you get home take a pic of the new pipe work, just to keep us updated.

That's new pipes, not as many as I thought but new none the less.

 

[jpbroad1970]

When it's in hot water on from programme, with cylinder start set to 55-60 boiler should fire. Probably heads gone on actuator or fault with motor or three port wiring

It's had new pump, new actuator if that's diverter valve.

 

[jpbroad1970]

A bit more info, when the new Plumber was doing his stuff the water he got to run clear and the hot water started to heat up, he then tried the heating side and that screwed the whole system.water went all crap again and boiler wouldn't fire.

 

[Aire]

That's new pipes, not as many as I thought but new none the less.

They've replaced the cold feed, it's a typical place for the system to block up there. Obviously there's no way of knowing whether it was blocked or not though. I personally wouldn't have installed a iso valve either, I'd have gone with a full bore valve and removed the handle so it can't accidently be turned off.

 

[Aire]

A bit more info, when the new Plumber was doing his stuff the water he got to run clear and the hot water started to heat up, he then tried the heating side and that screwed the whole system.water went all crap again and boiler wouldn't fire.

Sounds like a good power flush should see you right.

 

[Millsy 82]

To me it looks like the pumps are fine it's the fact that the flow and return are joined together that gets me.

But in all honesty I cant really make every thing out as it hurts my eyes. RIP it out and do it again.

 

[Aire]

To me it looks like the pumps are fine it's the fact that the flow and return are joined together that gets me.

But in all honesty I cant really make every thing out as it hurts my eyes. RIP it out and do it again.

It's not required but I thought that was a bypass and that the gate valve would only be partially open.

 

[jpbroad1970]

Thanks again guys my head hurts no and the Mrs is proper Soded off.

 

[Burger]

I’d think about getting in touch with @Brambles, very knowledgeable (more than me, which isn’t hard ). Didn’t know he was near to you? Might actually get it sorted.

 

[Millsy 82]

It's not required but I thought that was a bypass and that the gate valve would only be partially open.

I didnt even see a gate valve

 

[John.g]

Thanks again guys my head hurts no and the Mrs is proper ****ed off.

If that pump now actually running and on speed 3 then it should be showing a power output of > 35W.

 

[jpbroad1970]

The pump just switches off when the flow message comes up but yes it displays between 29 and 34 watt when running.

 

[John.g]

The pump just switches off when the flow message comes up but yes it displays between 29 and 34 watt when running.

OK then, if that is a 6M pump and running on fixed speed 3 @ 30W then it is only circulating ~ 0.2 m3/hr or 3.3 LPM, just turn the rotary knob fully clockwise and then back it off a little, when it starts up adjust it to read 4M (flashing), it will then change to display the power, if, in fact the flow rate is only ~ 3 LPM then it will only read 15/18w, the higher the better, to give any meaningful flow at this setting it should read ~ 25W which is ~ 13/15 LPM.

 

[Brambles]

JP

I would be wary of trying to fix this by making ad hoc modifications ( new bits of pipe and valves et al ) and then trying to run the system. You run the possible risk of either making the problem worse or possibly causing expensive damage to the boiler.

Isolate the heating system other than one radiator (preferably the one closest to the boiler ) and then systematically work through the boiler + single rad hydraulic system. At the same time check and test the individual controls against the logic diagram. Also fit a quality magnetic filter on the return to the boiler.

Once you are satisfied that you have a clear hydraulic path on your mini system - configure the pump to run with the boiler off and satisfy yourself you have a good clean flow path.

Thereafter and only when you have a clear hydraulic flow path, get the boiler operational at minimum rate and stable before you systematically look at the rest of the system.

At the end of the day, you have a fairly straightforward system to analyse, approach it in a logical step by step fashion - and make sure that you have not had anyone in to work in this problem who has changed the flow paths.

Always have in mind that you may have more than one problem with the system - hence the need to be systematic, patient and don’t jump to conclusions (sludge is an issue, but in my experience, a serious sludge problem = no flow, not erratic flow which are (to my mind) the symptoms you are describing ).



A suggestion - get the new iso valve by the pump removed - it is not full bore so is restricting flow - it may seem churlish, but the last thing you need at the moment is anything that disrupts or distorts the hydraulic flow

Hope this helps

 

[jpbroad1970]

JP

I would be wary of trying to fix this by making ad hoc modifications ( new bits of pipe and valves et al ) and then trying to run the system. You run the possible risk of either making the problem worse or possibly causing expensive damage to the boiler.

Isolate the heating system other than one radiator (preferably the one closest to the boiler ) and then systematically work through the boiler + single rad hydraulic system. At the same time check and test the individual controls against the logic diagram. Also fit a quality magnetic filter on the return to the boiler.

Once you are satisfied that you have a clear hydraulic path on your mini system - configure the pump to run with the boiler off and satisfy yourself you have a good clean flow path.

Thereafter and only when you have a clear hydraulic flow path, get the boiler operational at minimum rate and stable before you systematically look at the rest of the system.

At the end of the day, you have a fairly straightforward system to analyse, approach it in a logical step by step fashion - and make sure that you have not had anyone in to work in this problem who has changed the flow paths.

Always have in mind that you may have more than one problem with the system - hence the need to be systematic, patient and don’t jump to conclusions (sludge is an issue, but in my experience, a serious sludge problem = no flow, not erratic flow which are (to my mind) the symptoms you are describing ).



A suggestion - get the new iso valve by the pump removed - it is not full bore so is restricting flow - it may seem churlish, but the last thing you need at the moment is anything that disrupts or distorts the hydraulic flow

Hope this helps

thanks for that, it is getting a bit to much for me really I can only do very basic stuff. we just need someone to fix it lol , its been nearly 5 weeks now and I have no more hair left to pull out. I have a logical mind but I just cant seen to get my head around this. if we could just get hot water that would be ok for now until the rest can be fixed but its just not going right. in my head yet again ive got set the timer so its just HW which should close the rads off? drain the water out from the tap above boiler until it runs clear and see if the boiler then kicks back in or is that too simple, if that worked for a couple of days or so I could start opening one rad at a time. im getting to a point where im over thinking and clutching at straws I think.

 

[Brambles]

JP

I have not seen the system - but it is not complex. At a basic level there is something that is severely restricting flow - I doubt that that is just sludge ( but I am possibly wrong).

From a heat perspective, the issue you appear to have is either at or before the three position valve and the heat exchanger, where the pipework is of a reasonable diameter - but the heat exchanger obviously is not.

I would not keep on trying to fire the boiler until I was satisfied that I had a clear hydraulic path through the boiler - if you do and the overheat sensors fail ( unlikely, but if they are being tested repeatedly!) you could make the current problem worse.

On issues where a number of people have tried to fix it, you sometimes find that with the best will in the world they have changed something that has compounded the problem.

It is unlikely that the people you have had to look at the system are novices, but I think it is likely that you have at least two concurrent problems.

With respect to the people who have “serviced” your boiler - they have not in my view done a proper job - the quality of your system water has not got into that state in a year.

It is generally easier ( in my experience ) to get a system operational from the central heating circuit rather than the hot water side ( it eliminates any potential issues that may be within the tank pipework)

 

[jpbroad1970]

I haven't changed anything its all been done by "qualified " plumbers.

the boiler was serviced in February if I remember correctly.

 

[John.g]

I haven't changed anything its all been done by "qualified " plumbers.

the boiler was serviced in February if I remember correctly.

Its probably most unlikely but you can easily check that the circ pump is pumping in the right direction by checking the arrow on the pump body, also if you are thinking of doing a few things yourself, if you can run the pump with a separate (elec) supply with boiler powered off and then open that three way valve manually to its various settings you can then play around with venting rads etc and see if that pump power increases (speed 3), it should increase to ~ 38/40 W and you will then know that you are getting a decent flow before firing up the boiler again.
If a decent flow rate cannot be achieved then possibly the boiler Hx is fouled.

 

[jpbroad1970]

forgot to mention the pump initially drawers 28w on start up then drops to 27 on speed 2 is 11w

 

[John.g]

There is practically no flow at 11w on speed 2, which really just confirms more or less what you already know, 28W on speed 2 = 15 LPM but as its only on start up its hard to draw any conclusions from that.
From the above it would certainly appear that there is a very severe blockage(s) somewhere.

 

[jpbroad1970]

There is practically no flow at 11w on speed 2, which really just confirms more or less what you already know, 28W on speed 2 = 15 LPM but as its only on start up its hard to draw any conclusions from that.
From the above it would certainly appear that there is a very severe blockage(s) somewhere.

after start up it goes down to 27 until the boiler says no flow ( couple of minutes tops ) and shuts down. am reluctant now to try it any more in case we knacker the boiler up.

 

[John.g]

Probably misread your post #100, 27/28 W on speed 3 and 11W on speed 2 means no flow and would suggest something closed somewhere but you certainly can't keep firing the boiler up until you clear the obstruction or find what's closed which is why I suggested running the pump on a independent power supply with boiler off.

 

[jpbroad1970]

I'll try and find a wiring diagram for the pump and wire it to a plug to see what I can get on the pump to save my boiler

 

[jpbroad1970]

Was over thinking it , its only 3 wire connection isn't it was getting confused with 3 port valve