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Hi
I'm new on this forum so my apology if this is not the correct etiquette. Earlier I thought I was posting this question on a forum but think I actually "started a conversation" with Scott)

I am looking for advice on Viessman 111W corroding hoses.

Background:
I currently have a 19 year old Baxi Maxflow combi which, like the Viessmann 111W, has an on board ~ 50 Litre storage cylinder. As a concept it works well for us as we understand it. It needs replacing so I looked for a similar system and came to the Viessmann 111W. All was going well and then one plumber mentioned the “corroding rubber hoses” on the flow and return. Long story short, after investigations and mentioning this to a few installers a number of them had seen the issue or had mates who had seen the issue. (coincidentally I was speaking with a man I met and he has a Viessmann system boiler which after 2 years had exactly that problem too).
I spoke with Viessmann who were quite defensive on the subject blaming the installers for not installing the boilers correctly (blamed it on too much inhibitor!). The chap I spoke to then admitted that they had now changed from rubber hoses but said the 111W still had one rubber hose left in it. All this rather put me off Viessmann as the attitude seemed strongly to be: “we’re right everyone else is wrong”. (I have seen this with some other German suppliers suppling into the UK market where things may be done differntly to Germany). I also heard that their spare parts such as circuit boards are very expensive (I heard a tale of one board costing £950!).

However the modulation range of the boiler is great, the guarantee of up to 10 years is good and the stainless steel HEX attracts me.

But I am still very nervous about
  1. Corroding hoses,
  2. The price of the spare parts,
  3. Viessmann’s attitude/interpretation to the application of the guarantee (seem to have a reputation of trying to blame installers and not honouring it)
Question:
Would any of you have any advice/experience to confirm my thoughts or to disabuse me of them?

Thanks Gerry
 
Hi
I'm new on this forum so my apology if this is not the correct etiquette. Earlier I thought I was posting this question on a forum but think I actually "started a conversation" with Scott)

I am looking for advice on Viessman 111W corroding hoses.

Background:
I currently have a 19 year old Baxi Maxflow combi which, like the Viessmann 111W, has an on board ~ 50 Litre storage cylinder. As a concept it works well for us as we understand it. It needs replacing so I looked for a similar system and came to the Viessmann 111W. All was going well and then one plumber mentioned the “corroding rubber hoses” on the flow and return. Long story short, after investigations and mentioning this to a few installers a number of them had seen the issue or had mates who had seen the issue. (coincidentally I was speaking with a man I met and he has a Viessmann system boiler which after 2 years had exactly that problem too).
I spoke with Viessmann who were quite defensive on the subject blaming the installers for not installing the boilers correctly (blamed it on too much inhibitor!). The chap I spoke to then admitted that they had now changed from rubber hoses but said the 111W still had one rubber hose left in it. All this rather put me off Viessmann as the attitude seemed strongly to be: “we’re right everyone else is wrong”. (I have seen this with some other German suppliers suppling into the UK market where things may be done differntly to Germany). I also heard that their spare parts such as circuit boards are very expensive (I heard a tale of one board costing £950!).

However the modulation range of the boiler is great, the guarantee of up to 10 years is good and the stainless steel HEX attracts me.

But I am still very nervous about
  1. Corroding hoses,
  2. The price of the spare parts,
  3. Viessmann’s attitude/interpretation to the application of the guarantee (seem to have a reputation of trying to blame installers and not honouring it)
Question:
Would any of you have any advice/experience to confirm my thoughts or to disabuse me of them?

Thanks Gerry
Its easy Gerry, if you want this boiler and you have carried out admirable reasearch..you have taught me something. Then re engage with the Germans and see if they will cover these specific parts well over and above their normal statutary
time...nothing silly, say 8 years
might be appropriate in my opinion...or you can stick it on BG and after a service call they will pick up the tab. I for one will be very intrested in their reply ...you are an astute genuine customer who wants their product ....let us know how it all goes
Rob Foster aka centralheatking
 
Gerry
1, they dont corrode but oxygen is absorbed through the hoses this reacts with the heated water and a thin lining of crud ( for want of a better word ) forms on the inside . Its when this breaks off it can start to to block the plate heat ex. However they are pretty easy to clean if incorporated into a yearly service.
2, its very rare you will need any , pretty sure you can get a 10 year warrenty on the 111’s now .
3, the hose problem has been with the Viessmanns for years now , they bloody well know about it , recently they have changed to copper in some of their boilers after pressure from us guys .
4 lol , all the above would never stop me buying one , I have just bought a new one for my new house.
 
Gerry
1, they dont corrode but oxygen is absorbed through the hoses this reacts with the heated water and a thin lining of crud ( for want of a better word ) forms on the inside . Its when this breaks off it can start to to block the plate heat ex. However they are pretty easy to clean if incorporated into a yearly service.
2, its very rare you will need any , pretty sure you can get a 10 year warrenty on the 111’s now .
3, the hose problem has been with the Viessmanns for years now , they bloody well know about it , recently they have changed to copper in some of their boilers after pressure from us guys .
4 lol , all the above would never stop me buying one , I have just bought a new one for my new house.
What better an endorsement than TFJ...he knows his stuff
Rob Foster aka centralheatking
 
Yep , but I think op is correct theres still a rubber one in the 111, but tbh I haven’t seen one for ages .
Maybe its a rogue one , brand new but a left over that they are trying to dump the op could
ask for its registration/build id
before he gets involved
centralheatking
 
The 111 does have at least the one rubber hose. Viessmann are technically correct regarding the installation problems causing crunchy hoses but it’s not an easy thing to avoid on an existing system.
My advice is to properly flush the system making sure there’s no cleanser at all left behind and stick with fresh water only, Viessmann don’t push the use of inhibitors. I fit Viessmann, don’t use inhibitors and have no trouble.
Oh and if on the yearly service the hose is found to be crunchy don’t squeeze it with the boiler running but drain the thing, remove the hose and clean it out, an easy job.
 
Sounds to me like if you went for the 111 you wouldnt trust it or trust viessman to carry out the warranty on it.

I think viessman boilers are well made but I dont like rubber hoses in boilers and I dont like the price of parts either as they are very expensive.
 
Vaillant had a similar issue with crunchy hoses and they replaced them with copper, although you can still by the replacement rubbers. That could also break off internally and lead to a blockage in the main heat exchanger.
 
Gerry
1, they dont corrode but oxygen is absorbed through the hoses this reacts with the heated water and a thin lining of crud ( for want of a better word ) forms on the inside . Its when this breaks off it can start to to block the plate heat ex. However they are pretty easy to clean if incorporated into a yearly service.
2, its very rare you will need any , pretty sure you can get a 10 year warrenty on the 111’s now .
3, the hose problem has been with the Viessmanns for years now , they bloody well know about it , recently they have changed to copper in some of their boilers after pressure from us guys .
4 lol , all the above would never stop me buying one , I have just bought a new one for my new house.

Many thanks for taking the time to reply TFJ
  1. If it's O2 entering the system that causes the crud to form, why are Viessmann so against adding inhibitor, which should reduce the effects of O2, I would have thought. Seems odd?
  2. I wonder why in the 111W they left one rubber hose in but changed the other and changed from rubber hoses in their other models? I assume they really must need a flexible connection in that position in the 111W for some reason and couldn't get around it - does anyone know know if it's the flow or return hose, or which hose is still rubber in the 111W?
  3. You're right a 10 year guarantee is available, at an extra cost, but from what I have heard they do a lot of wriggling to avoid paying out on it. All manufacturers can do this, and on occassions do so, I understand that. For eg the manual states things such as: "Expansion vessels must be filled with Nitrogen". Does anybody actually do that?
They say water with more than 300 ppm hardness must be softend- how does anybody fill a system with softend water in a house with no water softner? Does any plumber carry a supply of treated water to fill the CH sytem?
It's always hard to tell what is fair about guarantee enforcement when you only hear only one side of the story from those that have had problems. One chap I met has had serious problems with Viessmann honouring the guarantee and he struck me as an honourable and reasonble man and a very competent heating engineer) and it's a fair view of them I'm trying to judge. Troble is one gets a "flavour" about somethng and its hard to shake of:-( But I like the spec of the boiler​
4. Glad to hear that you fitted a Viessmann yourself, somewhat comforting:)
 
The 111 does have at least the one rubber hose. Viessmann are technically correct regarding the installation problems causing crunchy hoses but it’s not an easy thing to avoid on an existing system.
My advice is to properly flush the system making sure there’s no cleanser at all left behind and stick with fresh water only, Viessmann don’t push the use of inhibitors. I fit Viessmann, don’t use inhibitors and have no trouble.
Oh and if on the yearly service the hose is found to be crunchy don’t squeeze it with the boiler running but drain the thing, remove the hose and clean it out, an easy job.
Thanks Drewy
My concern is that presumably when one finds the crunchy hose on the annual service the crunchy stuff has (or may have) already been circulating around the system for a period of time and may already have done some damage.

I’d be so much happier if they had no possibility of going crunchy at all by not being there:(. If only I didn’t like all the other things the Viessmann 111W appears to do so well or if there was a credible alternative as good/similar design of combi with 46L storage in a neat package with modulation down to 1.8Kw with no rubber hoses
 
Sounds to me like if you went for the 111 you wouldnt trust it or trust viessman to carry out the warranty on it.

I think viessman boilers are well made but I dont like rubber hoses in boilers and I dont like the price of parts either as they are very expensive.

Thanks for the parts price comment Millsy.

You are correct, I do have great doubts and because I like the rest of the spec so much I’m trying to disabuse myself of those doubts and to see if am being fair in my assessment of Viessmann and the boiler. If there was another game in town that matched what I wanted that didn’t have these hose issues or didn’t have the price of spares issue or the doubts about Viessmann’ s attitude to applying the guarantee I would be off to play it.
 
Many thanks for taking the time to reply TFJ
  1. If it's O2 entering the system that causes the crud to form, why are Viessmann so against adding inhibitor, which should reduce the effects of O2, I would have thought. Seems odd?
  2. I wonder why in the 111W they left one rubber hose in but changed the other and changed from rubber hoses in their other models? I assume they really must need a flexible connection in that position in the 111W for some reason and couldn't get around it - does anyone know know if it's the flow or return hose, or which hose is still rubber in the 111W?
  3. You're right a 10 year guarantee is available, at an extra cost, but from what I have heard they do a lot of wriggling to avoid paying out on it. All manufacturers can do this, and on occassions do so, I understand that. For eg the manual states things such as: "Expansion vessels must be filled with Nitrogen". Does anybody actually do that?
They say water with more than 300 ppm hardness must be softend- how does anybody fill a system with softend water in a house with no water softner? Does any plumber carry a supply of treated water to fill the CH sytem?
It's always hard to tell what is fair about guarantee enforcement when you only hear only one side of the story from those that have had problems. One chap I met has had serious problems with Viessmann honouring the guarantee and he struck me as an honourable and reasonble man and a very competent heating engineer) and it's a fair view of them I'm trying to judge. Troble is one gets a "flavour" about somethng and its hard to shake of:-( But I like the spec of the boiler​
4. Glad to hear that you fitted a Viessmann yourself, somewhat comforting:)
See if BG will take it on OR look at independant insurance this is usually cheaper..its covered for 1st year anyway...you are not obliged to take out further german insurance. Rob Foster
aka centralheatking...Money saving expert have a whole section on this subject
 
i dont know if this helps but i would have another viessmann if i get the chance had a 200 combi in last house with weather comp fantastic boiler.
 
See if BG will take it on OR look at independant insurance this is usually cheaper..its covered for 1st year anyway...you are not obliged to take out further german insurance. Rob Foster
aka centralheatking
last time i did ten year it was about £120 so not a bad price if all is good for £24.00 a year its going to cost a lot more for BG cover or one of the others
 
Take me back to the days when we installed a fully pumped system with a Glow Worm Hideaway B and a 36" x 18".

No trouble, no chemicals, no boiler manufacturers Engineers with test tubes, 20-30 years of life, nice to service, easy to repair, not many parts (most of them in the van), no leaking naff valves, no crunchy hoses, no wriggling manufacturers with every excuse under the sun for why it's not their fault (even though they made the damn thing in the first place), happy customers, oh and costs of gas? I don't think there is as big a difference as you'd expect.

Bit of a rant but there you go, it's done now.
 
Take me back to the days when we installed a fully pumped system with a Glow Worm Hideaway B and a 36" x 18".

No trouble, no chemicals, no boiler manufacturers Engineers with test tubes, 20-30 years of life, nice to service, easy to repair, not many parts (most of them in the van), no leaking naff valves, no crunchy hoses, no wriggling manufacturers with every excuse under the sun for why it's not their fault (even though they made the damn thing in the first place), happy customers, oh and costs of gas? I don't think there is as big a difference as you'd expect.

Bit of a rant but there you go, it's done now.
totally justified my friend I agree...the whole thing has been ramped up..stuff the efficiency if the stupid things dont last 15 years with no maintenance as they used to they must be rubbish products in general from an engineering point of view BUT it is marketing installing and fixing
happy days...loads of money
Rob Foster aka centralheatking
...first boiler installed 1982 ish
 
totally justified my friend I agree...the whole thing has been ramped up..stuff the efficiency if the stupid things dont last 15 years with no maintenance as they used to they must be rubbish products in general from an engineering point of view BUT it is marketing installing and fixing
happy days...loads of money
Rob Foster aka centralheatking
...first boiler installed 1982 ish

I get your point.

I was discussing this with a friend not long ago (not in our line of work). I was moaning about the stupidity of boiler plus and he pointed out that I am making more money as a result. If I don't sell it, someone else will, were his words and they are true enough.
However, I think that morals, responsibility and common sense have gone out the window (or up the flue) over the past decade. Boilers are made with built in obsolescence and people are expected to reduce their expectations for products that are a damn site more expensive to replace, repair or maintain and all in the name of progress.
 
Just get the 111. Use a Viessmann trained installer to get the 10 yr warranty (£120) then all you have to do is have it serviced every year. You’re reading too much into it. Viessmann are great to deal with.
I have a Vitodens 300 system boiler, 13 yrs old. Yes I know parts are expensive but the thing hasn’t given me a bit of trouble and is as good as new.

Used to fit Vaillant ecomax and had one where the rubber hose went crusty and bulged after a couple of years. That boiler is probably 13 yrs old now. I still look after it but have only changed the hose twice since the first one and that was more precautionary than anything, the replacements have never gone bad like the original and the system hasn’t been drained or flushed since installation.
 
Just get the 111. Use a Viessmann trained installer to get the 10 yr warranty (£120) then all you have to do is have it serviced every year. You’re reading too much into it. Viessmann are great to deal with.
I have a Vitodens 300 system boiler, 13 yrs old. Yes I know parts are expensive but the thing hasn’t given me a bit of trouble and is as good as new.

Used to fit Vaillant ecomax and had one where the rubber hose went crusty and bulged after a couple of years. That boiler is probably 13 yrs old now. I still look after it but have only changed the hose twice since the first one and that was more precautionary than anything, the replacements have never gone bad like the original and the system hasn’t been drained or flushed since installation.
 
Just get the 111. Use a Viessmann trained installer to get the 10 yr warranty (£120) then all you have to do is have it serviced every year. You’re reading too much into it. Viessmann are great to deal with.
I have a Vitodens 300 system boiler, 13 yrs old. Yes I know parts are expensive but the thing hasn’t given me a bit of trouble and is as good as new.

Used to fit Vaillant ecomax and had one where the rubber hose went crusty and bulged after a couple of years. That boiler is probably 13 yrs old now. I still look after it but have only changed the hose twice since the first one and that was more precautionary than anything, the replacements have never gone bad like the original and the system hasn’t been drained or flushed since installation.
Got the 111 - used a trained installer, got the 10-yr warranty, serviced annually but now being told now I have to foot the bill myself to swap the crunchy hoses to copper.
 

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