Urinal Auto siphon problem

[Dundeeplumber]

Hi folks,

I've fitted 3 new urinals supplied with cistern,auto siphon etc. Now when I first fast filled the system everything was ok,water flowed into all 3 urinals perfectly,now since that,the cistern just fills up & overflows outside.Ive changed the siphon & same again.Ive took the cistern off the wall & poured water down the sparge pipe & water comes from the urinals so it must be a problem with the siphon? I've seen it before when the sparge is too far up the siphon & it dribbles out but this isn't the case at all here,nothing is coming out.Ive slightly raised the cistern so the sparge pipe is no more than 20mm inside the siphon tail but still the same problem. When I fill it up over a sink everything works fine.

Anyone any ideas?

Thanks in advance.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Remove the sparge and use a bucket for a test

Sounds like maybe the sparge is creating too much resistance to get it started

You have used 22mm copper tube (min)?

 

[Dundeeplumber]

Remove the sparge and use a bucket for a test

Sounds like maybe the sparge is creating too much resistance to get it started

You have used 22mm copper tube (min)?

Thanks for the reply,its 28mm on the siphon,22mm connected to that then reducing to 15mm to each urinal. The customer ordered the whole package with sparge etc included. I'm guessing that using the bucket would be same result as when filling it over the sink?

Cheers again

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Thanks for the reply,its 28mm on the siphon,22mm connected to that then reducing to 15mm to each urinal. The customer ordered the whole package with sparge etc included. I'm guessing that using the bucket would be same result as when filling it over the sink?

Cheers again

Sorry cut of before I finished

Leave the main sparge pipe in eg before it tees off

Then add one urinal then retest sounds like you have a restriction/ restrictor

Maybe a diverter to make sure equal flow to each pot etc

 

[Dundeeplumber]

Getting into the pipework isn't the easiest, behind a tiled wall you see,customer wanted the old panels out & adamant he wanted tiles..nightmare! I did test using flexis into buckets before tiling was done and everything deemed fine.Can always take a tile or 2 out if necessary.Would the fact that the supply pipes to both urinals on the outside dont have formed bends instead they came with compression?That's the only resistance I can think possible.

Cheers

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Ends capped after you left tile addy / plaster in the pipes ?

 

[Dundeeplumber]

Ends capped after you left tile addy / plaster in the pipes ?

Yeah,and the pipes are behind plasterboard too so dont think there is any chance of anything getting in the pipes,plus when water is poured down the sparge its comes out at urinals.strange one it think.

 

[Shower Engineer]

Is the overflow too low down in the cistern?

 

[Dundeeplumber]

Is the overflow too low down in the cistern?

Thanks for the reply,No,the overflow is above the siphon level.

Cheers

 

[JCplumb]

Did you take the yellow stickers off the auto syphons(if they're the common brand)?
They disintegrate when wet and can cause problems.

 

[Dundeeplumber]

Did you take the yellow stickers off the auto syphons(if they're the common brand)?
They disintegrate when wet and can cause problems.

Thanks for the reply, yeah the yellow sticker was taken off on both original & replacement siphons. The merchants have a different style of cistern which uses a siphon with 1 1/4 inch outlet,would the bigger outlet make a difference?it will of course then be reduced to 22mm to tie in with sparge pipes.

 

[turnpin]

Auto syphons are available in different heights and outlet sizes I.e 11/4 x 7.....1x8 etc. Possibly to high for the system you have?.....regards Turnpin

 

[Dundeeplumber]

Auto syphons are available in different heights and outlet sizes I.e 11/4 x 7...1x8 etc. Possibly to high for the system you have?...regards Turnpin

Hi turnpin, thanks for the reply! I have tried both 7.5 & 6.25 heights which both have 1 inch outlet.My next plan is to use a 6.25 with a 1.25 inch outlet & reduce to 22mm for the sparge pipe.fingers crossed.

 

[Dundeeplumber]

That didn't work! I've now taken the urinals off the wall & gonna test the pipework into buckets rather than the urinals,if that works fine then maybe the spreaders could be the issue ie holes too small?if it doesnt work then looks like ink have to take tiles off & change the supply pipework to 22mm right up to the spreader.Nightmare.

 

[Dundeeplumber]

That didn't work! I've now taken the urinals off the wall & gonna test the pipework into buckets rather than the urinals,if that works fine then maybe the spreaders could be the issue ie holes too small?if it doesnt work then looks like ink have to take tiles off & change the supply pipework to 22mm right up to the spreader.Nightmare.

Picture of the pipework arrangement, filled the cistern with the flexis into buckets & everything worked fine.maybe a problem with the spreader?holes are very small but there is a bigger slot in the middle.

 

[Shower Engineer]

I haven't worked on these for many years but every one I fitted the pipework dropped straight down to the spreader. It looks as though in your case it would drop down and then go back up to the spreader? I wonder if this could be the cause of the problem?

Picture of the pipework arrangement, filled the cistern with the flexis into buckets & everything worked fine.maybe a problem with the spreader?holes are very small but there is a bigger slot in the middle.

View attachment 38911

View attachment 38912

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Flex kinked ?

 

[Dundeeplumber]

I haven't worked on these for many years but every one I fitted the pipework dropped straight down to the spreader. It looks as though in your case it would drop down and then go back up to the spreader? I wonder if this could be the cause of the problem?

Thanks for the reply, yeah that could be the case I suppose,certainly in the case of top entry spreaders.I followed the instructions that came with the urinals for the outlet height etc,the flexis were in with the urinals too. There must be some sort of restriction somewhere & it may be where you said.

cheers

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Lift the flexis up where there connecting onto roughly height wise and test again

 

[Shower Engineer]

Good idea but you may only get the problem on the second flush once water is left in the 'U' of pipework.

Lift the flexis up where there connecting onto roughly height wise and test again

 

[Dundeeplumber]

Good idea but you may only get the problem on the second flush once water is left in the 'U' of pipework.

I got a hand from come people who held buckets up to where the outlet would be & all seemed fine but I think you're correct as when I first fitted the urinals,they flushed perfectly first time.Its a fair pressure that comes out from the flexis when flushed.

 

[turnpin]

Looks from your picture that the pipework where the hoses are connected are too low unless I'm missing something ...can you post up a picture of one of the urinals...regards Turnpin

 

[S Green]

Am I right in that water dribbles into the top of the cistern, then when it's full it flushes. I don't seem to have a dribble; how do I adjust the flow?? Been installed for about 5 yrs

 

[Deleted member 120897]

Am I right in that water dribbles into the top of the cistern, then when it's full it flushes. I don't seem to have a dribble; how do I adjust the flow?? Been installed for about 5 yrs

Do you have any water?

 

[snowhead]

The most basic type of control is water gets into the cistern by dribbling through either a part closed tap or a on or near the end of the pipe, or a restrictor fitted in the pipe close to th cistern or above it.

Alternately there are many types of water control devices used.
Some still use a restrictor, some allow full flow for short bursts.
One detects the pressure drop in a nearby basin tap, then opens up to let water through.
Or there's a solenoid valve controlled by a timeswitch to stop out of hours waste water.
Or a solenoid controlled by a motion sensor of varying types, some are mains some are battery, althought the battery type usually fail open.