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Discuss Unexplained water usage overnight ... in the General Off-Topic Chat area at PlumbersForums.net

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Hello Everyone. I'm back! It's been a year since my original post and I still haven't managed to resolve the mysterious water usage in my home. It's driving me nuts as I just can't figure out what's going on and Thames Water aren't interested. I've attached some screenshots from over the Christmas period. I was away from Christmas Eve until the afternoon of the 27th December so there should have been no water consumption at all from 5pm on 24/12/22 until 5pm on 27/12/22. You'll see that there is a tiny amount being recorded during the afternoon/evening and I accept that I may have a small leak somewhere BUT there is a consistently large amount being used every night from 1am - 8am when I wasn't at home. The profile leads me to think that there must be something on a timer somewhere as the amount of water being "used" increases over a few hours and then tails off but I don't have anything in my home that would account for this. I was wondering if it might be a legacy issue from when the builders replaced the old back-boiler with a new Worcester Bosch combi-boiler some 10+ years ago but surely that would have all been capped off / disabled at the time. Anyone got any ideas as currently I'm "consuming" more water overnight than I actually "use" during the day. I really don't want to have to get an engineer out to investigate and to have all my lovely oak flooring ripped up in the process. Thanks for reading ... :)
 

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Here's the original thread:


Most of the usual diagnostic questions were asked and answered a year ago so I doubt you'll get the matter fixed without someone doing an on-site investigation. There are leak-finding firms who specialise in locating hidden leaks.

"I really don't want to have to get an engineer out to investigate and to have all my lovely oak flooring ripped up in the process."

Ripping up expensive flooring wouldn't be the first move for someone who knows what they are doing. If it's proved that's where the leak is then it will probably be possible to isolate the existing service pipe and run a new one that uses another route. A flooring company may be able to work with the plumber so that if a section of the floor does have to be taken up it is done in a way that allows a subsequent 'invisible' repair.
 
Here's the original thread:


Most of the usual diagnostic questions were asked and answered a year ago so I doubt you'll get the matter fixed without someone doing an on-site investigation. There are leak-finding firms who specialise in locating hidden leaks.

"I really don't want to have to get an engineer out to investigate and to have all my lovely oak flooring ripped up in the process."

Ripping up expensive flooring wouldn't be the first move for someone who knows what they are doing. If it's proved that's where the leak is then it will probably be possible to isolate the existing service pipe and run a new one that uses another route.
The thing is Chuck that it can't be a leak as the water that's being consumed is all overnight between 1am - 8am and follows a distinct pattern, rising from 1am and peaking at 4-5am and then dropping back to zero by 9am. The water usage during the day is totally as expected. Any idea of what kind of firm I should be looking for to do an on-site investigation?

1672772224906.png
 
Start turning your toilets off one by one until you see it stop etc
 
The thing is Chuck that it can't be a leak as the water that's being consumed is all overnight between 1am - 8am and follows a distinct pattern, rising from 1am and peaking at 4am and then dropping back to zero by 8am.
It's not a constant leak such as would arise from a pin-hole but there are other types. Some types of cracks open and close depending on pressure and temperature. Large trees have roots that affect the ground in a manner that varies over the course of a day, etc.

There are lots of things one can do to track down this sort of problem but they aren't really DIY and they require kit that not many plumbers have on their van.

Any idea of what kind of firm I should be looking for to do an on-site investigation?
Google "Leak finding specialists London" and have a chat to them by phone first. Some of them may offer a domestic customer a fixed fee service on a no-find no-fee basis but times are tight and they have to make a living.
 
Start turning your toilets off one by one until you see it stop etc
Thanks @ShaunCorbs ... I've had the toilet checked by a plumber recently when I had some new radiators installed and there was no leak - also bought the dye tablets that you put in your cistern to check for any leaks overnight but there was nothing. I remain convinced that it's not a leak as I was away for 3 days with zero water usage being recorded at all during the day - just the same scenario that I've now had for 3 years where water is being "consumed between midnight and 8am. I'm baffled. Thanks for your advice as I'm sure the answer is out there somewhere. :)
 
It's not a constant leak such as would arise from a pin-hole but there are other types. Some types of cracks open and close depending on pressure and temperature. Large trees have roots that affect the ground in a manner that varies over the course of a day, etc.

There are lots of things one can do to track down this sort of problem but they aren't really DIY and they require kit that not many plumbers have on their van.


Google "Leak finding specialists London" and have a chat to them by phone first. Some of them may offer a domestic customer a fixed fee service on a no-find no-fee basis but times are tight and they have to make a living.
Thanks for the great advice @Chuck - I'll contact a few companies and will keep you posted. Appreciate your help. :)
 
Thanks @ShaunCorbs ... I've had the toilet checked by a plumber recently when I had some new radiators installed and there was no leak - also bought the dye tablets that you put in your cistern to check for any leaks overnight but there was nothing. I remain convinced that it's not a leak as I was away for 3 days with zero water usage being recorded at all during the day - just the same scenario that I've now had for 3 years where water is being "consumed between midnight and 8am. I'm baffled. Thanks for your advice as I'm sure the answer is out there somewhere. :)

Have you tried turning your internal stop tap off ?
 
Yes, I have @ShaunCorbs and it continues to record the same water usage every night. :-(

So it’s not internal so either leak externally or someone else it tapped into your supply

Leak seaker required

Might be worth contacting someone like This
 
So it’s not internal so either leak externally or someone else it tapped into your supply

Leak seaker required

Might be worth contacting someone like This
Thanks @ShaunCorbs ... I've already had the smart meter replaced as Thames Water originally thought that I may have been spurred with my neighbour so that's now been ruled out. Thames Water are saying that there must be a leak between the street and the stopcock under the kitchen sink but I'm not convinced. Can you post the URL here please as I'm getting "page not found". Thanks for taking the time to try and help me resolve this - it's hugely appreciated. Happy New Year! :)
 
It’s blocked by the filter best I can do

If you Google the leak detective uk should be the same as picture below
 

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Thanks @ShaunCorbs ... I've already had the smart meter replaced as Thames Water originally thought that I may have been spurred with my neighbour so that's now been ruled out. Thames Water are saying that there must be a leak between the street and the stopcock under the kitchen sink but I'm not convinced. Can you post the URL here please as I'm getting "page not found". Thanks for taking the time to try and help me resolve this - it's hugely appreciated. Happy New Year! :)
Another random thought ... could it be something to do with the old back-boiler not having been properly disconnected? I'm wondering if the old system worked on the "Economy 7" type heating style we used to have back in the day where it runs overnight. Sounds crazy I guess, but that's how mad it's driven me that I'm clutching at anything to try and understand this.
 
Could it be a water softner highly efficient softeners may generate every day or even multiple times a day.

Still happens if the main internal stop tap is off so I wouldn’t say it was
 
Another random thought ... could it be something to do with the old back-boiler not having been properly disconnected? I'm wondering if the old system worked on the "Economy 7" type heating style we used to have back in the day where it runs overnight. Sounds crazy I guess, but that's how mad it's driven me that I'm clutching at anything to try and understand this.

Only way would be if it’s refilling a tank in the loft etc
 
If it’s being recorded when internal stopcock is closed, then surely it makes sense to be on the supply only?
 
You said these reading come from a smart meter? I've never seen a smart water meter, are you able to read a physical display yourself? If so you could isolate the water at night and check the reading in the morning. A lot of these meters use a radio type signals that can be prone to interference possibly supplying false readings, not sure why it would only do this at night though, unless you user interface is picking up another meters signal?
 
If it’s being recorded when internal stopcock is closed, then surely it makes sense to be on the supply only?
I've no idea, @ChrisB1982 - here's the reading for New Year's Day and I was away from home the night before and didn't get back until 4pm so shouldn't have any water usage being recorded before then. :-(

1672856914830.png
 
You said these reading come from a smart meter? I've never seen a smart water meter, are you able to read a physical display yourself? If so you could isolate the water at night and check the reading in the morning. A lot of these meters use a radio type signals that can be prone to interference possibly supplying false readings, not sure why it would only do this at night though, unless you user interface is picking up another meters signal?
Hello @IND_Nick ... thanks for your thoughts on this. Yes, I can see the physical display myself and I've isolated the water at the mains in the street over the period of a week. When I do that, I get no water consumption showing overnight. However, if I isolate from the stopcock in the kitchen, the overnight readings persist. The smart meter has been changed but the overnight usage has continued to be the same. The profile of the readings shows a distinct peak every night so makes me think it's something that's on a timer but nothing in my home uses water overnight. It's driving me nuts and costing me money for water that's literally going down the drain. Example below for when I wasn't even at home. :-(

1672857266784.png
 
You say there is no usage when off in the street, but there is usage when off at the house stopcock.
Therefore there is either a tee off before your house stopcock, or a leak between house and street, or your house stopcock doesn’t function properly.

Turn off the house stopcock and then go to each and every source of water you have and verify that they have stopped.

Report back.
 
Have you checked the meter number against your meter number on your bill? The reason I ask is I once came across a situation where x2 flats were crossed over so one was being billed and the other rates, but the meter was recording the wrong property.
 
You say there is no usage when off in the street, but there is usage when off at the house stopcock.
Therefore there is either a tee off before your house stopcock, or a leak between house and street, or your house stopcock doesn’t function properly.

Turn off the house stopcock and then go to each and every source of water you have and verify that they have stopped.

Report back.
Hi @Ben-gee. Thank you so much for your thoughts. I'm wondering if you might be onto something as I seem to recall when we bought the house 15 years ago that there was more than one stopcock in the house and we were told it was because one of them didn't work. The one that I can reach is under the sink and that still records water consumption overnight when the stopcock is turned off. I think from memory that the other stopcock was housed inside the chimney breast and although we could see it, we couldn't access it due to it being inside the chimney breast. I've drawn a rough outline for the downstairs of my home so you can see what I'm talking about (it's a basic diagram but you'll get the idea). There is nothing upstairs using any water as we only have a downstairs bathroom. I'm still baffled because as I've explained to other contributors, when I am away from home for any length of time, the meter accurately shows that there is no water used at any other times except overnight between 1am - 8am. So even if it's tee'd off to another property, surely I would expect to see water usage at other times of the day? If it's a leak I would have expected to see it being registered at differing times not just during a rigid 8 hour window and even if the stopcock under the sink isn't functioning properly, it doesn't change the fact that water is being "consumed" somehow, someway. Hoping this helps and I really do welcome any ideas you have about how I would go about checking if there is a tee before the stopcock in the kitchen, short of having to rip up my oak flooring? :-(

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at night water pressure increases have you got a central heating sytem that needs refilling or a unvented cylinder as that may be letting bye at night when pressure higher and discharging out the safety valve.
 
at night water pressure increases have you got a central heating sytem that needs refilling or a unvented cylinder as that may be letting bye at night when pressure higher and discharging out the safety valve.
Nope - I don't believe that's a cause as I have a Worcester Bosch Combi Boiler?
 
What type of property do you have? We did a job once where a terrace house couldn't isolate their water supply from the meter tap in the road and it eventually worked out that even though they had a new separate supply for their house, mid terrace, there was an old feed under the floor from a shared supply that essentially looped into the property underthe floor(it should.of been disconnected). It could also be complete coincidence but a toilet flush is approximately 4.5 ltrs to 6ltrs and the amounts being used correspond to a number of flushes.
 

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