USA Toilet/ WH Pan Assistance for a colleague in USA

[JasonCPE]

Hi from the USA-
I'm a plumbing engineer and master plumber in the USA who is going to be building a new home and plan on using European wall-hung pan toilets with a concealed (in-wall) cistern. I intend to purchase these in the UK and have shipped here. I would really appreciate some input to a few questions. I will be using an adjustable cistern that can provide up to 9 liters per flush, and don't mind doing so since I am on a private well and private septic system which I own. My primary concerns are:

1) No skid marks. Must completely clean the bowl and I don't want to have to brush between uses.

2) Must not be prone to blockages from heavy toilet paper etc.
It would be preferred if the above were achievable with a single flush, and I'm hoping my ability to use 9 liters per flush will help. It should be capable of standing up to even commercial/ public use without problems.

3) Nice looking and modern would be great...but it seems like accomplishing the above is hard enough.

Since here in the states this type of water closet is rather rare and such fixtures generally have a reputation for needing brushing after "heavy" use, I'd like to ask the experienced plumbers in the UK what fixtures really do meet the above criteria based on your experiences and not just marketing hype. The test data I have found is very limited and doesn't address some real world issues.

Based on my own research, here are the fixtures I am thinking would be best. Please share any comments or other recommendations. If you prefer to privately message me, that would be fine to. Based strictly on the limited data I can find, the ones I am presently thinking will perform best (in order) are:

1) Ideal Standard "Tesi" Aquablad #T3545
2) Grohe "Euro" #3932800H
3) Duravit #2563090092 "New Darling" or possibly "Durastyle"
4) Toto "Aquia" #CT418F-01
5) Toto "MH" #CWT437FG-01

Other ones I was considering but ultimately thinking may not perform as well were the Keramag 207050 "Xeno2" I did find one other fixture that looked appealing, "Catalano 1VS55NR00 "New Flush" from Italy but I could not find much info on it, let alone a supplier. I also found a Toto water closet #682E "Jewelhex" that has a look we really like, but I suspect it would flush no better than any other Toto and besides I could not find any suppliers outside of Asia.

Unfortunately, almost no one provides critical information such as ball pass/ diameter of trapway, water spot (what little there is) or meaningful real world flush test results. I am also concerned that the units that are rimless may have splashing or spillover with a 9 liter cistern and am questioning that they really will scrub or preclude skid marks better than say the "aquablade".

While I don't want to do it, I could certainly design to use an in wall pressurized flushing device (such as Schell), but hoping that is not necessary (due to noise and need to run larger piping and pumps).

Certainly there must be a good solution that is proven in various commercial facilities where constant brushing would not be practical.

It's a long email, but I'd truly appreciate the input of the UK plumbers as well as anyone with a lot of experience with these and other products. Thank you so much.

Jason

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Have you had a look at geberit ?

 

[snowhead]

Welcome, from over the water

I was in Arizona last year and witnessed your swirl flush pans in my Son's rented house.
It was impressive compared to UK weak flush. Although they did complain of blockages but only in 1 particular pan.

I've just done a quick search and found the below.
Wall hung, rimless, swirl pattern with a high glaze finish.
I personally think it's the quality of glazing on the pan that determines Skids or not.

Flushing system for wc without rim Swirlflush® - GSI ceramica

I've recently retired and my last 25 years have been in commercial buildings, supermarkets, where W.Cs are a major issue.

Re rimless and 9ltr, yes you are going to have to be carefull
I've fitted rimless pans to older style U.K wall mounted cisterns and it's very easy to get the water over the rim.
Usually a restictor is need to slow the flow down.
In fact I've had to fit restrictors to some new rimless concealed 6ltr cisterns, probably due to the quality of the pan.

 

[gmartine]

Indeed...

Geberit products | Geberit North America

Wall-mounted toilets | Duravit

Wall-Mounted Toilets

 

[Chuck]

You may have difficulty sourcing what you want from the UK as successive regulations reduced the maximum flush capacity from a vigorous 13 litres in the 1960s down to a relatively miserly 6 litres since 1st Jan 2001 (Water Regulations, 1999). Since water is now metered in the UK there has been a move to reduce consumption further with dual flush systems.

 

[Stigster]

The toilet in my house has a pathetic flush and almost always fails to clear the pan first go. I end up flushing 2 or 3 times at 6 L per flush, I'm using 12 - 18 litres per dump. So much for the 6 litre saving any water. As a plumber I could easily replace this piece of rubbish but I'm afraid it's a case of "The cobbler's children have no shoes."

 

[JasonCPE]

Have you had a look at geberit ?

Thanks. At this point I'm only interested in particular models I've mentioned or specific models that individuals recommend. There is no such thing as a single good or bad manufacturer, so just a name like Geberit doesn't help (but thank you). From my perspective, many manufacturers have (at one time or another) made at least one good product. Sometimes they even use the same model name and make changes meaning that sometimes even the same model name has only been good certain years. We have found some excellent products by Kohler, Crane, American Standard, and Briggs as well as some terrible ones by all the above. Really I"m convinced it comes down to ball pass, water spot, and flushing action design. Some manufacturers are playing games with things like water spot and trapway dimensions. What used to be for example a deep 250x 350 mm water spot and almost an entirely wetted bowl area now is typically around 100 x 150 mm for water spot and sometimes with games played in the dimensioning (like diamond shape) so the numbers look better. And the new glazing games (these non-stick coatings) I think are ridiculous. Mark my words, it will be a matter of years and those surfaces will be terrible and much worse than the standard glazing. Ball pass on the models of water closets that were problem free used to be a minimum of 57 to 63 mm. Now (if anyone even states what theirs is) they usually give "trapway" dimensions and play games at that (like elongating the cross section) to make the numbers look better. It's no wonder people have to brush or plunge! Hey but we're saving water right? Right?

Sorry for the digressing. But as I look through more and more manufactures products (and a few videos of the flush games that one can find here and there) I'm not impressed.

I also am very skeptical of rimless. But, I would love to hear otherwise from those that have experienced them. Right now, fundamentally the approach of Aquablade and that one Italian one I mentioned at least fundamentally SOUND the most promising.

 

[JasonCPE]

Welcome, from over the water

I was in Arizona last year and witnessed your swirl flush pans in my Son's rented house.
It was impressive compared to UK weak flush. Although they did complain of blockages but only in 1 particular pan.

I've just done a quick search and found the below.
Wall hung, rimless, swirl pattern with a high glaze finish.
I personally think it's the quality of glazing on the pan that determines Skids or not.

Flushing system for wc without rim Swirlflush® - GSI ceramica

I've recently retired and my last 25 years have been in commercial buildings, supermarkets, where W.Cs are a major issue.

Re rimless and 9ltr, yes you are going to have to be carefull
I've fitted rimless pans to older style U.K wall mounted cisterns and it's very easy to get the water over the rim.
Usually a restictor is need to slow the flow down.
In fact I've had to fit restrictors to some new rimless concealed 6ltr cisterns, probably due to the quality of the pan.

Thanks so much. I saw the GSI approach on line, but I am concerned they are going to have stoppage issues. Unfortunately there really is not enough data to make much of an assessment, but it doesn't seem to differ too much from the Italian model I mentioned by Catalano that actually did sound impressive but I don't know enough about or have access to.

Here in the states, the water restriction went from approximately 9.5 liters to 6.0 liters in 1992. Sad thing is, at 9.5 liters there were many excellent fixtures. There was a variety of flushing actions (siphon jet, siphon vortex, blow-out, and wash-down) at the time and some models performed spectacularly. Never a clog, never a need to brush. In 1992 almost everything became terrible. And regardless of what most say, that is pretty much how they are today. You either flush multiple times by limiting the usage of paper per flush (so there is no stoppage), or you deal with a stoppage. And dirty bowls/ skid marks requiring at least another flush or two are not uncommon. Less issues in the commercial applications with fixtures that use flushometers (pressurized flushing devices), but the noise and water flow rates makes that relatively unsuitable for residential applications.

Do they use pressurized flush devices (flushometers/ flush valves) in the UK? Do any particular water closets seem to work really well with them?

I'm shocked at how many manufacturers show photos of their toilets next to a beautiful toilet brush holder. Seriously, after a few uses of the brush, the bacteria that must be in that brush holder...sounds disgusting to me. Just need to find toilets that work. I'm kicking myself for not buying some and hanging on to them for future. Unfortunately, the law is getting tighter (headed toward 4 liters per flush) and pretty much disregarding other areas of water and energy waste that would really make a difference. No common sense any more.

 

[JasonCPE]

Welcome, from over the water

I was in Arizona last year and witnessed your swirl flush pans in my Son's rented house.
It was impressive compared to UK weak flush. Although they did complain of blockages but only in 1 particular pan.

I've just done a quick search and found the below.
Wall hung, rimless, swirl pattern with a high glaze finish.
I personally think it's the quality of glazing on the pan that determines Skids or not.

Flushing system for wc without rim Swirlflush® - GSI ceramica

I've recently retired and my last 25 years have been in commercial buildings, supermarkets, where W.Cs are a major issue.

Re rimless and 9ltr, yes you are going to have to be carefull
I've fitted rimless pans to older style U.K wall mounted cisterns and it's very easy to get the water over the rim.
Usually a restictor is need to slow the flow down.
In fact I've had to fit restrictors to some new rimless concealed 6ltr cisterns, probably due to the quality of the pan.

By the way, I wanted to thank you for some great comments. It doesn't sound like you have seen much on the commercial side that impresses you either. I did find the pressurized flush device (we call them "flushometers" here in the states) made in Germany by "Schell" which I would suspect if fitted with an "Aquablade" MIGHT generate a good flush if dialed up to say 9 liters, but I don't know that for sure and really don't want to have to pipe the house with the larger piping/ pumps that would require. Not that it is out of the question. Just hoping to find a better solution or at least confirm how well it works before hand.

 

[JasonCPE]

The toilet in my house has a pathetic flush and almost always fails to clear the pan first go. I end up flushing 2 or 3 times at 6 L per flush, I'm using 12 - 18 litres per dump. So much for the 6 litre saving any water. As a plumber I could easily replace this piece of rubbish but I'm afraid it's a case of "The cobbler's children have no shoes."

Thanks for the chuckle. Trying really hard so the children have shoes in this cobblers house. But pretty hard when the shoe manufacturers all make crappy shoes and market them brilliantly. Truth is I actually believe there would be some great ways to make very good flushing WC's with some where in the range of 6 to 11 liters per flush. Sad. I have not yet gotten a positive impression of rimless. Just can't find much on Aquablade. Since the flow is directed downward, I'm thinking more pressure might work well with them. Even if the Cistern were at the ceiling, say with a remote flush button.