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Client ran out of oil. Locked out. Has Grant eco ext. wall boiler 1.3 mtrs off ground. Tiger loop on wall same height as burner. Tank 4mtrs away on ground. 10mm copper suction line.
I went round. It never restarted via reset button so bled a bit from pump and Ok. Pump was a bit winey and pressure jumping at start but soon settled, I presumed just air clearing via tiger loop. Ran fine. Next morning Lockout.
I returned and reset and noticed air still bubbling through tiger loop on return line. Suspected air getting sucked in through old flexis or isolation valves
I replaced the flexis. Put a clear one on the suction side and removed isolation valves. Redone suspect compression joints (no inserts!! as usual). Bled and all running smooth. Suction clear flexi line full of oil , no air. Great...I though job done.
Boiler off for about 40 min then I restarted and straight away air suddenly appeared in the clear oil flexi and boiler locked out. ?? There is only two elbow compression joints on the run from tiger loop 60cm away to the clear suction hose. I replaced one and the other one awkward access would vent back to tiger loop if drawing in air.
When running no air in clear flexi. When off no air accumulating in clear flexi. Suction pipe has high point at tiger loop and other at flexi so presume any air from a leak would be seen in clear hose or vent back to tiger loop.
Could the tiger loop suck in air at start up when first started. should I be looking at tiger loop for fault.
What are the possible thing that could go wrong with them?
Anyone with an idea how to pressure check pipework with tiger loop?
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Anyone know if the tigerloop with clear plastic top is no longer compliant? I was told today from P centre only glass top tigerloop now compliant and of course at the double price...
 
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Client ran out of oil. Locked out. Has Grant eco ext. wall boiler 1.3 mtrs off ground. Tiger loop on wall same height as burner. Tank 4mtrs away on ground. 10mm copper suction line.
I went round. It never restarted via reset button so bled a bit from pump and Ok. Pump was a bit winey and pressure jumping at start but soon settled, I presumed just air clearing via tiger loop. Ran fine. Next morning Lockout.
I returned and reset and noticed air still bubbling through tiger loop on return line. Suspected air getting sucked in through old flexis or isolation valves
I replaced the flexis. Put a clear one on the suction side and removed isolation valves. Redone suspect compression joints (no inserts!! as usual). Bled and all running smooth. Suction clear flexi line full of oil , no air. Great...I though job done.
Boiler off for about 40 min then I restarted and straight away air suddenly appeared in the clear oil flexi and boiler locked out. ?? There is only two elbow compression joints on the run from tiger loop 60cm away to the clear suction hose. I replaced one and the other one awkward access would vent back to tiger loop if drawing in air.
When running no air in clear flexi. When off no air accumulating in clear flexi. Suction pipe has high point at tiger loop and other at flexi so presume any air from a leak would be seen in clear hose or vent back to tiger loop.
Could the tiger loop suck in air at start up when first started. should I be looking at tiger loop for fault.
What are the possible thing that could go wrong with them?
Anyone with an idea how to pressure check pipework with tiger loop?


Can you see air in bottom chamber on inlet or the top chamber? If it's coming into inlet then you've most likely got a suction leakage between tank and loop. If it's in the top chamber then I'd suspect a suction leakage between loop and burner.
You could also have a partial blockage increasing vacuum which can pull gases from the oil if around -0.3 to -0.5 bar pressure, have you put a vacuum gauge on?
Also what is length and run of the 10mm and nozzle size?

Plastic loop no longer compliant apparently
 
Can you see air in bottom chamber on inlet or the top chamber? If it's coming into inlet then you've most likely got a suction leakage between tank and loop. If it's in the top chamber then I'd suspect a suction leakage between loop and burner.
You could also have a partial blockage increasing vacuum which can pull gases from the oil if around -0.3 to -0.5 bar pressure, have you put a vacuum gauge on?
Also what is length and run of the 10mm and nozzle size?

Plastic loop no longer compliant apparently
Going back Monday. Hard to tell where it is coming from as tiger loop plastic top all faded. Oil level is about 30mm in bottom chamber. Does not foam or anything when running but you can see it circulating.
Ill put a vacuum gauge on and see what I get.
nozzle size , 0.5 80deg EH. 10mm pipe run about 5mtrs in total from tank to tigerloop (3.5mtrs underground). Tank filter, 2nd paper filter at near Loop, then fire valve - loop.
 
See if you can distinguish where the bubbles are entering. Where the bubbles are entering should tell you a lot, from what you've said above I'd suspect a suction leakage on inlet to valve or a blockage, or one of the compression fittings before the clear flexi. The suction head and length of 10mm are well within acceptance, in fact you could run it in 8mm no problems. It doesn't help that theres no inserts, as you know inserts help stop air ingress and the pipe from crimping, flared even better.
 
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Just been looking at the non-combustable tigerloop ie metalic construction . New Regs.
How do you tell if loop faulty or air in the lines if you cant see inside the tigerloop any more.?
 
Not sure if you can to be honest. Just a question of process of elimination with regards to fault finding
 
Its monday. Did you go back and find the fault?
Here Goes ...The list of work done...Arrived and now constant lock outs.. Noticed burner Transformer bulging . Tested and no spark. Changed Transformer. Started up ok .. Running but still bit of air getting through.
Checked all filters for blockages and checked flow from tank. Good flow of oil.
Done a vacuum test at pump and got about -0.2.
Removed tiger loop and pressure tested oil line from tank to loop for 1 hour and ok . Then suction line and return lines from pump for 30min. Suction line suspect. Replaced section of pipe where olives crimped pipe (no inserts!!).
Tiger loop very old and plastic top all faded Bottom chamber was half full, Ok. But could see it had a bit of oil in top chamber ( Is that ok or not)??.
Decided to change anyway for new regs metal dome loop.
Bled and fired up burner running ok. 2 or 3 pin head size bits of air trapped at top of clear hose but running fine. Few On ,off's ,on off's and running smooth. Oil pressure gauge sitting smooth.
Job done.. Re tested combustion .
Started packing up and ...LOCKOUT !!!:mad::mad: ?*% , .. LOCKOUT
Changed Control Box . Fired up straight away. Been running fine all week .. Can you believe it...!

Can a faulty control box cause a transformer to bulge and fail ?
 
Yes the transformer can take out a control box, happens a lot. Oil in top chamber is fine, when the top chamber is full it opens up the valve between top and bottom chamber and closes inlet into bottom chamber from suction line. It then uses what fuel it needs to until it drops and then closes valve between top and bottom chambers and opens up suction line inlet again. It's a constant cycle and how it works, do not worry
 
How would the transformer influence the control box. If 230volts to transformer and high voltage to electrodes, how does it influence all the control box. Is the warping excessive heat in the transformer? does the excessive heat infuence the control box switching. ? Or does it actually damage it? Does this excessive heat warp the switching in the control box? Reason I asked the control box failed with the new transformer in ?
I just like to know how these things happen\?
 
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How would the transformer influence the control box. If 230volts to transformer and high voltage to electrodes, how does it influence all the control box. Is the warping excessive heat in the transformer? does the excessive heat infuence the control box switching. ? Or does it actually damage it? Does this excessive heat warp the switching in the control box? Reason I asked the control box failed with the new transformer in ?
I just like to know how these things happen\?

Hi. Right I've cast that question on the elders and heres what their experience says.
Many of them agree that the control box takes out the transformer, this happens when the control box relay has failed causing continuous supply to and through the step up transformer, this overheats the transformer causing the bulge that you see sometimes.
 
Ok . So the faulty control box has taken out the transformer ( by continuous supply... .)and not the transformer creating a fault on the control box.

Just annoying when you get side tracked by another possible fault like air in lines. Just looks like Ive thrown loads of parts at it at a cost...
Just realised I has the same problem a year ago with identical boiler but the control box failure was more obvious and the transformer had a bulge so changed while there.
Live and learn...
 
Ok . So the faulty control box has taken out the transformer ( by continuous supply... .)and not the transformer creating a fault on the control box.

Just annoying when you get side tracked by another possible fault like air in lines. Just looks like Ive thrown loads of parts at it at a cost...
Just realised I has the same problem a year ago with identical boiler but the control box failure was more obvious and the transformer had a bulge so changed while there.
Live and learn...

It's not a sign of a good engineer just chucking parts on hoping to fix, more often than not people who do this cost the customer much more than needed and ultimately fix the issue without actually understanding it in the first place. A good engineer will have plenty of van stock, have a fault finding routine and fix on first visit.
 
It's not a sign of a good engineer just chucking parts on hoping to fix, more often than not people who do this cost the customer much more than needed and ultimately fix the issue without actually understanding it in the first place. A good engineer will have plenty of van stock, have a fault finding routine and fix on first visit.

Agree completely.

When a boiler is broken down it's an easier fix than an intermittent fault.

Had an intermittent fault when I first started. Turned out to be a weak spark. Can hear a weak spark now.

It's hard when you have multiple faults and even worse when a replacement part out the box is faulty.
 
It's not a sign of a good engineer just chucking parts on hoping to fix, more often than not people who do this cost the customer much more than needed and ultimately fix the issue without actually understanding it in the first place. A good engineer will have plenty of van stock, have a fault finding routine and fix on first visit.

I have not just chucked parts at it and hoping for a fix... There was a fault on transformer which was noticed by the bulge and then checked and confirmed buy lack of spark arc at electrodes. Also using an fault finding method/ logic chart to test and Solenoid and photo cell together with multi-metre. How would you check for an intermittent fault on the control box? You cant test it with a multi-metre like testing a capacitor or coil for wear... Or Can you test a Loa24 ?? As it turns out it was the control box. Should I have ignored the air being sucked in oil line ? This may have not been why it was locking out but surely could of been? and would affect pump combustion etc.. and needed rectifying.

I come on this site to further my education and understanding of my trade to hopefully get advice that is not in the MI from more experienced plumbers. The reason I ask these questions is to get a better understanding so as to not ''chuck parts at the issues''
All in the hopes of one day becoming a 'good engineer'...
 
I have not just chucked parts at it and hoping for a fix... There was a fault on transformer which was noticed by the bulge and then checked and confirmed buy lack of spark arc at electrodes. Also using an fault finding method/ logic chart to test and Solenoid and photo cell together with multi-metre. How would you check for an intermittent fault on the control box? You cant test it with a multi-metre like testing a capacitor or coil for wear... Or Can you test a Loa24 ?? As it turns out it was the control box. Should I have ignored the air being sucked in oil line ? This may have not been why it was locking out but surely could of been? and would affect pump combustion etc.. and needed rectifying.

I come on this site to further my education and understanding of my trade to hopefully get advice that is not in the MI from more experienced plumbers. The reason I ask these questions is to get a better understanding so as to not ''chuck parts at the issues''
All in the hopes of one day becoming a 'good engineer'.

Easy buddy, when I said about signs of a bad engineer I didn't mean you! You already shown you have a good understanding, which is more than I can say about many people out there who touch these things.
The LOA24 is a Siemens box as you know and you can get test adapters for them to prove or disprove any faults with the box or burner components, they aren't exactly cheap though mate.
 
Easy buddy, when I said about signs of a bad engineer I didn't mean you! You already shown you have a good understanding, which is more than I can say about many people out there who touch these things.
The LOA24 is a Siemens box as you know and you can get test adapters for them to prove or disprove any faults with the box or burner components, they aren't exactly cheap though mate.
Sorry. got a bit defensive thanks for previous input.
I did not know you can get test adaptors, presume it only does this control box. As this is only one of many different control boxes presume more spares on van cheaper option..
 
No worries buddy. I believe Satronic do test adapters for their boxes as well but like I said they're not cheap. Basically it will test function of box and burner components and indicate what's wrong. I've never owned one, in fact I only know a couple guys that do, one of which made his own (very good guy, when he talks you listen type of guy). If you're doing a lot of oil you really want at least a couple of the immediate replacements, ie boxes, cells, coils, pumps, ebi's etc, on top of the usual nozzles, filters and hoses. There will always be occasions where you need to source some parts but obviously be sure of the problem and that you get everything you need to return and rectify.
Again when I said about bad engineers it was not aimed at you, there are too many people out there that don't have a good understanding and replace any part without a clue of what's going on and hope it fixes the problem.
 

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