Solid fuel heating system problem

[chook1976]

I could really do with some advice.

Bit of back history, I have a trianco thorncliffe solid fuel room heater it has a back boiler, my dad put the system in just over 30 years ago, everything was bought from the then local fire shop, installed with lots of advice from them, the system has worked perfectly well for year's, odd problems hear and there.

Recently the over flow pipe started leaking and my intentions were once the fire was shut down for the summer to have both expansion tanks replaced and the pump to a newer model, about a month ago, the back boiler started hissing and the pump started running hot and making a noise, after checking everything found their was a drop in water pressure going to the coil in the hot water tank, the heat dump rad was still hot, but others had gone off, the over flow had also stopped leaking, once fire was out, water pressure was back up, pump no longer noisy and over flow is leaking again, this has all happened twice so far, same thing weeks apart, I was told by a few I had to get someone out who was hetas registered, I did contact someone, who point blank said he wouldn't even bother looking at the system and would just condem it, did explain to him that ithe system has all ran fine for 30 years and tbh my intentions are to eventually get the whole system overhauled, new pipes, rads etc, but he refused to listen, there's no way at the moment I could afford to have it condemned, so now worried about contacting someone else.


Sorry its a bit long.

Jane

 

[Ric2013]

Condemned by whom? I'm not sure he has the power to 'condemn' solid fuel... he can't exactly have you disconnected at the meter, can he?

To have any hope of giving you a sensible answer, we need to understand what you have in there: what overflow you are on about, and how you are measuring the pressure at the cylinder coil. Sounds like a stove with back boiler. Is the installation as on the picture on this link: Boiler Stoves Information - https://www.woodburningstovesdirect.com/boiler-stove-installation-advice.htm ?

Shorter sentences would help. Your writing style is a bit like William Faulkner's: very long sentences that exceed my ability to concentrate.

 

[chook1976]

Hi Ric


Sorry about the essay.

I honestly don't know what he was thinking, I have a feeling he just wanted me to have a whole new fire and system put in, at a cost of 10-15 grand.

OK, no it's not like the picture, apologies as it's hard to explain.

Two pipes go from back boiler, directly to hot water tank coil.

Hot water tank it's self is vented, there's a feed that comes from the expansion tank in the attic, that goes to that system, that also has a vent going to it

The other two go to heating, first rad doesnt have any thermostat valve, rest have them on. Being honest I don't know which the pump is on, in or out pipe and it only has the old fashioned timer- on/off switch

There's also no pipe stat, as I'm not sure they were around 30 + years ago and I honestly never knew about them.

This is one of the reasons why I was going to get the system all redone and updated, as although yes it has been working quite well, it could be better.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Sounds fine to me the one niggle you need to make sure you have enough rads without trvs on to keep the stove happy eg if you have a 5kw stove you need 5kw of un restricted rads etc

 

[chook1976]

Sounds fine to me the one niggle you need to make sure you have enough rads without trvs on to keep the stove happy eg if you have a 5kw stove you need 5kw of un restricted rads etc

Tbh I was thinking that the other day.

Currently there's only 3 rads linked up to the system, its a small one that's no thermo valve on , the other two rads do play up and stick quite often.

I'm not sure what wattage it is, I think it can do, I'm sure it was 6 - 8 rads, I need to get at least 3 more put in, living room, hall and bathroom, which could all be open without a thermo valve on.

Think I may ring around a few places tomorrow and see if can get someone out to have a look at the system and look to putting more in once the weather warms up a bit.

Need to see if I can get someone to out to put in a new feed/expansion tank as well, as I'm sure that's where the original problem lies, as it's never been touched in 30 years.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Tbh I was thinking that the other day.

Currently there's only 3 rads linked up to the system, its a small one that's no thermo valve on , the other two rads do play up and stick quite often.

I'm not sure what wattage it is, I think it can do, I'm sure it was 6 - 8 rads, I need to get at least 3 more put in, living room, hall and bathroom, which could all be open without a thermo valve on.

Think I may ring around a few places tomorrow and see if can get someone out to have a look at the system and look to putting more in once the weather warms up a bit.

Need to see if I can get someone to out to put in a new feed/expansion tank as well, as I'm sure that's where the original problem lies, as it's never been touched in 30 years.

Is it a copper tank ?

 

[chook1976]

Is it a copper tank ?

Feed/expansion tank ? No its simler to the cold water one, plastic, except its in the attic, the cold water one is directly above the hot water tank, in the airing cupboard.

There's only the hotwater tank thats copper.

I was originally going to go up and have a look at it and possibly order a new one,
however when the attic had new insulation put in year's ago, the idiots have put it across the beams. So you cant see where they are and I've not a clue size I would need to oder either.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Shouldn’t be plastic needs to be copper as if the stove vents it’s boiling water and will just melt the tank also copper ball on the ball valve

 

[chook1976]

Shouldn’t be plastic needs to be copper as if the stove vents it’s boiling water and will just melt the tank also copper ball on the ball valve

Thanks, you've been a big help, it's much appreciated.

I've now book marked a lot of different websites, wither different stuff, feel like I'm going down a rabbit hole, as didn't realise there was so many different products out there.

Although ours from what I can tell is a simple system, I do think theres newer stuff thats come out now that could help make it better.

I've looked at some of the copper header tanks, I've mostly seen round ones, that are insulated, I would have to check that I could actually get one through the attic door.

I'm presuming the over flow pipe would have to be changed to copper pipe also ? As that's plastic piping as well.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Correct warning pipe should be 22mm copper

They make rectangular one see below etc

High temperature metal F&E and Header tanks | Tanks suitable for use with uncontrollable high temperature heat sources such as AGA and Wood Burning stoves

Metal header tanks (copper) suitable for high temperature water in vented solid fuel systems and for use with a thermal store.

www.gasapplianceguide.co.uk

FEED & EXPANSION TANK 40 LITRE COPPER INC BALL VALVE & FLOAT - Harworth Heating

…Read More...

www.harworthheating.co.uk

 

[chook1976]

Thank you, will have a look.

Hopefully will be able to get someone out to sort it, just waiting on someone to get back me.

 

[Ric2013]

I think you can even get non-metal tanks that are suited to high-temperature water. Which may give you more choice.

Basically, if your boiler can run some of the radiators and/or the cylinder without the pump being on, and is open-vented, I cannot see that it is likely to be especially dangerous, particularly as it has been tested for thirty years; although I agree the F and E may not be suited to high temperatures. The fact that the pump is on a simple timer is not a safety issue. More than anything, the concern is the system may need the pipes cleaning out as they may be heavily sludged up, especially the cold feed pipe.

Hopefully your new plumber will prove more helpful than the last.

 

[chook1976]

I think you can even get non-metal tanks that are suited to high-temperature water. Which may give you more choice.

Basically, if your boiler can run some of the radiators and/or the cylinder without the pump being on, and is open-vented, I cannot see that it is likely to be especially dangerous, particularly as it has been tested for thirty years; although I agree the F and E may not be suited to high temperatures. The fact that the pump is on a simple timer is not a safety issue. More than anything, the concern is the system may need the pipes cleaning out as they may be heavily sludged up, especially the cold feed pipe.

Hopefully your new plumber will prove more helpful than the last.

Thank you Ric.

I agree, the system does need a good flush through and clean out.

I was going to ask the bloke if he could do that at the same time as changing the header tank.

I did change the small rad for a new one about 4/5 years ago and did put some of the stuff in at the time,
I'm sorry I can't remember what it's called, it was left to run through for a couple of days, then drained out.

There was some black sludge at the bottom of the old rad, but not as much as I thought there would be and there's no cold spots.

 

[chook1976]

Little update.

Thanks for all the advice, after a lot of being messed around.

I decided to have look myself, the tank and pipe work were fine and seemed in good condition, no leaks etc.

The ballcock however wasn't and there was a load of crap in the tank, unfortunately there's some damage to the chimney breast and bits of brick had blocked up the tank.

I've completely cleaned it out and changed over the ballcock and connection, had to cut the plastic nut off, as it wouldn't buget.

That all seems fine now, filled it back up and kept a chck on it, no leaks at all so far.

Fire is back in and i can actually hear water going round the system now, just waitingfor it all to heat up and then will do a check of the rads etc.


I have bought some of the sludge cleaner and totally forgot to put it in, I want to change the central heating pump anyway to a more updated one, was thinking the evo 3, as have currently got an older evo model.

So can drain the system a bit and put it in when I change the pump.


The bloke that originally wanted to condem the system, has actually emailed me yesterday and today, still to reply to him, he's asked me to contact him as he's misplaced my number.

 

[Ric2013]

Good work. There is often no substitute for time and patience.

 

[chook1976]

Good work. There is often no substitute for time and patience.

Thanks, think I just need the confidence to get in there and have a look, the loft isn't an easy place to get in and out of, as you have to climb between two major beams as you get torough the hatch and there's not a lot of room.


Everything still seems to be working fine today and have noticed rads arnt getting as hot as they were before, they are hot, but before it was like they were boiling and you could hardly touch them, they didn't need bleeding at all yesterday.

I did bleed the pump, as it's still rattling a bit, I've a feeling the pump is probably on its way out, so will get the neone sooner rather than later.