Quality of a heating installation

[Michael_SO]

Hello,

I hope I post this in the right section. I bought a house couple of months ago. There was an old, broken back boiler installed in the fireplace, so I looked for a company to replace it with a nice shiny combi boiler. A gentleman came over to estimate the work. He offered to replace the boiler along with the existing heating system and all necessary plumbing. I was told it will cost ~£7000. I thought that's rather expensive, and he agreed, but also said that along with premium price comes a premium service. It took them a week to finish, hot water is there, radiators work. The house is being redecorated, so I didn't notice anything unusual (I do not live there yet). One day a builder who work there called me to ask if I noticed the noise the pipework makes. We decided to take the ceiling down to inspect the installation…

This was done last month, 2021, XXI century and described as a premium service, “normal installation”, “common practice”. All the pipes are placed directly under the floor (in some places not deep enough and planks are pushing against pipes). I can't put new hardwood floor on top of it because I have to use long staples that may perforate pipes. Not a single pipe is fixed or isolated. Old pipes are left in place so new ones had to be bent to go over. When I stop my shower, the hot water pipe hits another (old and dead) pipe and wakes up half of the neighbourhood. When pipes get hot, they must expand because they make a squeaky sound. Have a look at the soldering.

I'm not a plumber but common-sense (plus every singe builder that comes to work in the house) tells me it doesn't look like a premium service worth ~£7000. I called the company, but they refuse to visit and evaluate the work done by their employee. They told me there's nothing wrong with it, but if I want to change anything, they are happy to send another estimate. I would like to ask if this is normal or do I expect too much?

 

[Chuck]

Looks like every joint has been overheated (or made without flux) and left oxidised. In my opinion, the quality of work looks as though it was done with no planning by someone very careless and/or untrained. It all needs ripping out and re-doing by another firm who knows what they are doing.

The fact it 'works' is not relevant. If you paid good money for a premium job that is not what you've been given so it's a breach of contract (implied terms) case. Consult Trading Standards or Citizens Advice for advice on how to proceed.

If you want to see examples of 'premium work' search the forum for pictures posted by @king of pipes showing his own work. Here's the sort of thing I have in mind:

Screenshot_20190302-193815_Photos.jpg

www.plumbersforums.net

Screenshot_20191127-063113_Photos.jpg

www.plumbersforums.net

 

[exedon2]

Not a good standard pipework very poorly installed any chance of a picture of boiler pipework?
Picture of job I did around same time as yours before lagging went on.

 

[Michael_SO]

Boiler itself doesn't look bad (at least to me). It was installed by the same person who installed the rest of the pipework.

 

[fronty]

Good grief I'm no expert but from my untrained eye that looks terrible. Maybe a call to trading standards might help, or you could try this: Make a complaint about gas work - online form - Gas Safe Register - https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/help-and-advice/complaints-report-an-illegal/gas-work-complaint/

 

[ballvalve]

What a load of rubbish pipes and fittings not been cleaned and you don,t solder pipes and fitting together The pipes will not last as they will pin hole.

 

[Michael_SO]

Good grief I'm no expert but from my untrained eye that looks terrible. Maybe a call to trading standards might help, or you could try this: Make a complaint about gas work - online form - Gas Safe Register - https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/help-and-advice/complaints-report-an-illegal/gas-work-complaint/

I think I should, but I have already found someone who is actually available and willing to replace it. As you imagine, that's not easy these days. The original installer refused to have a look at the pipework and I can't wait forever because other work is being blocked.

 

[Murdoch]

plumbing aside but those pictures suggest the cables are resting on the pipes

that isn’t good either.

 

[king of pipes]

Very unprofessional in my opinion the installer should hang his head in shame premium service my arse , I would say the soldering has been done in lead solder and not very well either a premium service should speak for itself in the quality of the install as below

 

[cjg]

what a bag of sh**. done by some one who thinks he"s a plumber.

 

[Michael_SO]

Very unprofessional in my opinion the installer should hang his head in shame premium service my arse , I would say the soldering has been done in lead solder and not very well either a premium service should speak for itself in the quality of the install as below

On one of your pictures, I can see that the pipe goes through a hole drilled in a joist. That's what I was expecting since I told them about my plans to install new hardwood floor.

 

[Michael_SO]

what a bag of sh**. done by some one who thinks he"s a plumber.

Hard to believe, but the company is very well known and respected in my area. I have heard nothing but very positive opinions about them.

 

[Harvest Fields]

I think I should, but I have already found someone who is actually available and willing to replace it. As you imagine, that's not easy these days. The original installer refused to have a look at the pipework and I can't wait forever because other work is being blocked.

Have you given the company a chance to come back and fix it?

 

[IND_Nick]

It is a very poor installation. I'm surprised they used copper pipe, with that level of workmanship it is normally plastic.
As said above, if you want to pursue this in court etc I believe you need to give them an opportunity to rectify any issues, or at least have something in writing from them saying that they will not return.
To pipe the system in copper it would require the pipes to run just under the boards in notched joists. So whatever you use to screw/fix the flooring down shouldn't go all the way through the floorboards.

 

[king of pipes]

On one of your pictures, I can see that the pipe goes through a hole drilled in a joist. That's what I was expecting since I told them about my plans to install new hardwood floor.

As i said very poor installation the company may well have a good reputation but it only takes a rushed installation by one of its employees to tarnish that reputation, forward the above photos to the company with a polite covering letter giving them the opportunity to resolve the poor standard of workmanship, this may well be enough to rectify this situation. Regards kop

 

[Michael_SO]

Have you given the company a chance to come back and fix it?

I went to their office about 20 days ago (and we are exchanging emails since then) to ask if they could visit the property and evaluate the work. They asked me to email photos and replied that there is nothing wrong with the installation and if I want to change anything I will have to pay for the modification. In their opinion, the installation is done correctly. They said that it would be not reasonable to lift the floor to fix pipes. When they visited the first time, I told them that the house will be redecorated, and they can do whatever needs to be done. An electrician asked me if we could remove ceilings to make his work easier, so we did. It was full if artex anyway.

 

[Michael_SO]

forward the above photos to the company with a polite covering letter giving them the opportunity to resolve the poor standard of workmanship

That didn't work. When I spoke to an office guy and showed him one of the photos, he replied: "oh, that's not right". I did mention that in one of the emails I have sent, but at the end I was told I lie, and he never said that. Why would I lie if I have the installation there, and they could come and see?

 

[Chuck]

They asked me to email photos and replied that there is nothing wrong with the installation and if I want to change anything I will have to pay for the modification. In their opinion, the installation is done correctly.

So, you've offered them a chance to remedy the work and they've refused. Box ticked. It's time to get a quote for remedial work. Also, check your house insurance to see if you have cover for legal disputes.

A fairly standard tactic that companies use in cases like this is to drag things out for as long as possible in the hope you'll give up. The way to deal with this is to drive the process forward by giving them the legal minimum time to respond to you before you take the next step.

Also keep in mind that companies that are about to go bust often start cutting corners and stop caring about their future reputation, which is another reason to get disputes settled ASAP.

 

[king of pipes]

Well you need to go above him and prepare yourself for a long drawn out battle to get the work put right , or pay out again to replace the pipework in a tidy manner which will allow you to move on with the project and then forward the invoice to the original installer with no guarantee of getting that money back.

 

[SimonG]

I've seen worse, much worse.

Soldering, as said above, looks like lead and as long as it's on central heating only then it's not an issue.
The quality of soldering is rough and ready, but obviously not leaking.
Pet hate to see flux left on pipes, needs cleaning off.
Pipes shouldn't be touching other pipes or cables on pipes. Small piece of insulation goes on my pipes where cables are near.
As for notches, its standard on existing buildings. Did you ask for him to drill joists? I do it as standard on new builds and extensions. Building control likes to see holes in the neutral axis of the joists.

There are issues that need correcting. That's not debatable. Could have taken that ceiling down prior to install.

For me you need the following.

Joints cleaned up.
Notches opening up to give enough room and some felt wrapped around.
Pipes moving away from other pipes and cables or protecting.

Hope you get it sorted.

 

[Ric2013]

An electrician asked me if we could remove ceilings to make his work easier, so we did. It was full if artex anyway.

If ceilings are Artex they may contain asbestos and should either be treated as asbestos or sampled andl laboratory analysed. If sampling proves not asbestos, you can merrily rip them out. If it contains asbestos, removing it safely is expensive, but it may be possible to find a workaround that involves leaving the Artex in place.

Any tradesman who disregards the potential of asbestos in Artex is a cowboy IMO - do you really want that person's contaminated tools and vacuum cleaner in your house?

 

[Michael_SO]

If ceilings are Artex they may contain asbestos and should either be treated as asbestos or sampled andl laboratory analysed. If sampling proves not asbestos, you can merrily rip them out. If it contains asbestos, removing it safely is expensive, but it may be possible to find a workaround that involves leaving the Artex in place.

Any tradesman who disregards the potential of asbestos in Artex is a cowboy IMO - do you really want that person's contaminated tools and vacuum cleaner in your house?

I was informed (on paper) by my solicitor that the house is asbestos free.

 

[Michael_SO]

I've seen worse, much worse.

If I pay £6648.37, and I'm being told it's going to be a premium service, it has to be premium, perfect and quite as a mouse.

Did you ask for him to drill joists?

No, I'm not a plumber, not a builder, I pay, so I don't need to be. We had a brief conversation about what I would like to do with the existing floor (it involves long nails and screws). It is funny, but the biggest disappointment is not the quality of their work, it's how they respond to what I have found: pretending it is great work and refusing to visit and evaluate what the young and clearly inexperienced employee did.

For me you need the following.

Joints cleaned up.
Notches opening up to give enough room and some felt wrapped around.
Pipes moving away from other pipes and cables or protecting.

So it basically has to be redone. How can I know how much of that led got inside and potentially block the water flow?

 

[SimonG]

If I pay £6648.37, and I'm being told it's going to be a premium service, it has to be premium, perfect and quite as a mouse.



No, I'm not a plumber, not a builder, I pay, so I don't need to be. We had a brief conversation about what I would like to do with the existing floor (it involves long nails and screws). It is funny, but the biggest disappointment is not the quality of their work, it's how they respond to what I have found: pretending it is great work and refusing to visit and evaluate what the young and clearly inexperienced employee did.


So it basically has to be redone. How can I know how much of that led got inside and potentially block the water flow?

No heating system will be as quiet as a mouse. Metal expands and contracts as it heats and cools, its physics. Mind you I've heard some flaming noisy mice.

So there was nothing agreed about pipe depth below floor.

You mean solder, none will be blocking the pipes, it's all hanging out the bottom. Gravity and flux take care of that.

As I mentioned in my previous post on the matter there are a few issues you need sorting, but there are also two sides to every story. Would love to hear the other side and hear why a big, reputable company is behaving in the manner being reported here.

 

[Michael_SO]

No heating system will be as quiet as a mouse. Metal expands and contracts as it heats and cools, its physics. Mind you I've heard some flaming noisy mice.

A figure of speech. I am aware of physics, but that doesn't mean you should hear pipes banging against the floor or other pipes when you simply walk across the room. At least in my opinion.

So there was nothing agreed about pipe depth below floor.

No. I never tell people how they should do their job, especially If I have no idea about it. I simply describe what effect I do expect and trust they will do their best. I also pay for not being forced to become an experienced plumber before asking for a plumbing service. If a business client ask me for an application, they discuss specification, but when a “normal” person ask for the same, I do not expect them to discuss sorting algorithms, benchmarks, and libraries I can choose from. There's always trust involved, and in my opinion I should do everything not to break it.

You mean solder, none will be blocking the pipes, it's all hanging out the bottom. Gravity and flux take care of that.

As I mentioned in my previous post on the matter there are a few issues you need sorting, but there are also two sides to every story. Would love to hear the other side and hear why a big, reputable company is behaving in the manner being reported here.

Yes, it would be great to understand why, but all I get is: “there's nothing wrong with the installation”.

 

[Ric2013]

Drilling joists is very rare and absolutely not standard practice for any rigid pipework. It would involve an awful lot of extra joints in a retrofit situation so may be argued to be not altogether better. It is what I personally prefer as pipes are easier to insulate, but I have not been able to consistently use this method even in my own house. In fact, I was taught at college that it is not possible to drill joists and run 15mm plus diameter copper tube through them in retrofit situations (this isn't entirely true and, me being me, a long discussion followed). Depends very much on what other services are already in place and of course you cannot drill a hole in proximity to an existing notch, nor is it good to make new notches and holes if there are exiasting ones that can be re-used. It is the hardwood floor installer's job to avoid hitting the pipes and I would expect the person laying the floor to be able to work around perfectly normal pipework notches. Nailing through a pipe would be bad carpentry, not bad plumbing.

Of the soldering pictured, much of it is perfectly acceptable. It is entirely normal to have a slight drip under a horizontal joint and far better that than risk a dry joint. I agree others of those solder joints pictured are really messy. That said, I know an old plumber who, back in the days when solder was considered expensive, was pulled up on 'going through a lot of it'. He replied, 'I don't have have many leaks though, do I?'. His employer said no more on the subject. Lead solder is still allowed to be used on heating systems and has a reputation for being less brittle than lead-free solder. Indeed, I still carry both types in my van.

Failure to clean the pipe after soldering is less impressive and suggests a rushed job. I have seen pipes with excess flux left on the outside of them that have still been providing good service after 40 years, and if your system was properly flushed during commissioning to remove any excess flux inside the pipes I'm not quite sure why the pipes would pinhole, but I would still want to see the excess flux cleaned off,

My biggest concern with the installation quality in this case is pipes being run for long spans unsupported and poor design of pipe layout relying on the inherent flexibility of lengths of copper tube rather than proper bends being formed. Bend it around old pipes if you must, but use a bending spring or pipe bender - not just curve the length of pipe like a banana. Any plumbing textbook will apply the standard clipping distances of 4' for 15mm tube and 6' for 22mm tube on a horizontal run and I would not expect to see those long unsupported runs you have shown. Also, good practice for a pipe laid in a notch is either to fit a pipe clip every couple of joists of so, or to felt-line the notch to allow for movement. I agree that pipes should not be touching one another at any time.

Basically, if you'd bought the house like that, I'd suggest to snag the parts causing you noise or fouling the floorboards and leave well alone. For a new installation, this is poor, however.