Plumber left me with luke warm radiator

[PhatEd]

Hi there.
I'm after some advice on some work that we have had done today in the house to replace a single panel radiator with a larger double panel one. The chap has been out, drained down the system, installed the new larger radiator and refilled the system. He then bled all the rads and left it for half an hour to get up to temp, but it wasn't really heating up. He said that there is probably air in the system and so closed all of the lock shield valves on the other rads in the house to force everything through this one new rad. He left it another 30 mins and this new radiator is only warm at the top and nearly cold at the bottom. He then said that it's not getting as hot as he would like but I need to leave it like that for a week to see if it improves and to call him back if it doesn't. He then tried telling me that the pump might need replacing as it might not be up to the job of the bigger radiator, but I really can't see that. It's only one radiator that has been replaced (single to double Type 21)...

Obviously I've done some investigation online since being told this and from what I am reading it doesn't seem right. It sounds like there is an airlock in the system that needs sorting out? I have since contacted him this evening to say I'm not happy and to ask him to advise / come back to sort it and he has told me that an airlock can take time to clear and to see how it goes over the next few days.

Does this sound right? Or am I being fobbed off here? As far as I was concerned, this new radiator should have been fitted and in a fully working state before he disappeared. If there is an airlock, it should have been sorted out as part of the job?

Any advice appreciated.
Thanks

 

[Best]

Sometimes an airlock will eventually clear if heating used for a day or two, but plumber is having a laugh if he expects you to wait at least a week in winter weather to see if the new radiator works.
Has the plumber sorted it now?

 

[PhatEd]

Sometimes an airlock will eventually clear if heating used for a day or two, but plumber is having a laugh if he expects you to wait at least a week in winter weather to see if the new radiator works.
Has the plumber sorted it now?

Thanks for the response. He’s told me to wait a few days and let him know if it doesn’t improve. He fitted in on Thursday so I think waiting until Monday to get him back is ample time especially with it being winter like you say. The irony of it is that we had it swopped out because the room is so cold and at the moment it’s colder than it was with the old one.

I’ve tried closing all but three of the other rads off (stuck trv pins) and in all fairness, the rad is getting a bit hotter at the top, but the bottom is only warm. More than anything I feel like he’s done half a job as the rad should have been red hot when he left in my opinion. I‘ve not paid him yet and wont be until the job is complete!

 

[centralheatking]

What dia pipe is feeding this new bigger radiator, did the old one get blistering hot. CHKing

 

[rpm]

Given him a get out clause now that you have been messing with it.

 

[PhatEd]

What dia pipe is feeding this new bigger radiator, did the old one get blistering hot. CHKing

Looks like about 6-7mm plastic push fit piping. He had to extend the piping with couplers to make it wide enough for the new rad. And yes, the old radiator used to get blistering hot, as do all the other rads in the house.
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Given him a get out clause now that you have been messing with it.

Hardly been messing with it, closing off try valves. That normal process for rooms you don't want warming up. He didn't tell me to leave them all shut or open or anything.

 

[Scott_D]

Did you have new valves fitted?
Is it a standard ‘branded’ radiator or something fancy or an eBay special?

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

I suppose the question is here, did the old radiator actually work as you say the room was cold? Did it get as hot as the others?

As if you've called him out just to fit a new larger radiator because the old one didn't work fully then you've not really addressed the issue or been truthful with your installer - there's probably another issue at cause if this is the case.

He could also be right about the pump - pumps which are 10/15 years old can drop in performance and this is usually noticeable when larger radiators start to not get as warm or hot at all.

In terms of timescales - he should have really addressed the issue on the job rather than just leave. Or at least arrange to come back and investigate further. Giving him till Monday is ample time to allow an airlock to clear.

 

[PhatEd]

I suppose the question is here, did the old radiator actually work as you say the room was cold? Did it get as hot as the others?

As if you've called him out just to fit a new larger radiator because the old one didn't work fully then you've not really addressed the issue or been truthful with your installer - there's probably another issue at cause if this is the case.

He could also be right about the pump - pumps which are 10/15 years old can drop in performance and this is usually noticeable when larger radiators start to not get as warm or hot at all.

In terms of timescales - he should have really addressed the issue on the job rather than just leave. Or at least arrange to come back and investigate further. Giving him till Monday is ample time to allow an airlock to clear.

Thanks for the response.
The old radiator did work and got just as hot as the others do now. The problem was that the old radiator was no where near big enough for the room, especially as it is a cold room (3 outside walls). It was only a 45cm high single panel job.

I've been running the central heating quite a bit today and the top of the radiator is definitely getting hotter than it was a couple of days ago, but the bottom is only warm. The top also isn't as hot as the other rads in the house.

 

[centralheatking]

This one is great lesson to all heating engineers. ALWAYS before you start any work on a domestic system run the heating up to modulation and check all the rads are right on, hot water etc. Then when you are satisfied it works according to the householders statement and they agree...START and not before. This eliminates any grey areas from either side. Its too easy to roll up and get going and inherit an existing problem .....centralheatking

 

[PhatEd]

This one is great lesson to all heating engineers. ALWAYS before you start any work on a domestic system run the heating up to modulation and check all the rads are right on, hot water etc. Then when you are satisfied it works according to the householders statement and they agree...START and not before. This eliminates any grey areas from either side. Its too easy to roll up and get going and inherit an existing problem ...centralheatking

You're implying that there was an existing problem here... There was not. All rads worked as expected. All I wanted doing was one radiator replacing for a bigger one and for them to make sure it works before they leave me with an ineffective one!

 

[SJB060685]

This one is great lesson to all heating engineers. ALWAYS before you start any work on a domestic system run the heating up to modulation and check all the rads are right on, hot water etc. Then when you are satisfied it works according to the householders statement and they agree...START and not before. This eliminates any grey areas from either side. Its too easy to roll up and get going and inherit an existing problem ...centralheatking

Agree wholeheartedly. Long before I was around my dad once got called out to do a service whereby the customer knowingly had an existing problem. As always my dad started to run the system before any service to prove or disprove something was wrong be he got there. If my old man hadn't have done that the customer would of argued my old man had caused the fault and try forcing him to pay.

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Yes I've had it done to me with a boiler service, learnt my lesson since then. When a customer enquires for a service which is a new customer or one that doesn't usually have it serviced I ask if there's out wrong. 9 times out of 10 there's usually something!

The OP has gone a bit quiet...

 

[PhatEd]

Yes I've had it done to me with a boiler service, learnt my lesson since then. When a customer enquires for a service which is a new customer or one that doesn't usually have it serviced I ask if there's out wrong. 9 times out of 10 there's usually something!

The OP has gone a bit quiet...

Ha ha.
Was looking for some help to be honest. As I have said, there were no issues with my rads at all before this one was installed.

 

[SimonG]

The OP has gone a bit quiet...

Probably replied but waiting approval before we see it.

These posts waiting approvals are causing a bit of an issue on the forum. System says theres a reply, but you don't get to see it until its approved, and the approvals are slowing down. Shaun must be stretched.

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Probably replied but waiting approval before we see it.

These posts waiting approvals are causing a bit of an issue on the forum. System says theres a reply, but you don't get to see it until its approved, and the approvals are slowing down. Shaun must be stretched.

Yeah seems to be an issue, I thought I hadn’t seen a reply.

 

[Gerry]

Easiest thing for the plumber to do is shut off both valves check the flow of water through each valve this would also help clear any air lock it’s unusual for the pump not to heat the new road aslong as it’s not a fancy rad with flow directions which can sometimes not heat correctly or can air lock if the flow through both valves are correct it can sometimes be a faulty rad some of the cheaper made rads now and then not often can be faulty!! Lastly and most unlikely if it’s a 1 pipe system the rads to far from main run but these systems are very uncommon
As central heating King says all systems and boilers should be checked before system is touched!!

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Ha ha.
Was looking for some help to be honest. As I have said, there were no issues with my rads at all before this one was installed.

What is your pump speed on and what system is it? Is it a combi, or traditional Open vented system etc..

 

[centralheatking]

You're implying that there was an existing problem here... There was not. All rads worked as expected. All I wanted doing was one radiator replacing for a bigger one and for them to make sure it works before they leave me with an ineffective one!

I was just using your radiator swop to illustrate that heating engineers ought to follow a strict routine when attending premises. A strict methodology from the start cuts down on the number of possible variables when things do not turn out as expected. I did ask you for the heating flow and return pipe sizes and the comparative old and new rad outputs/sizes in order to help get the problem solved.
Centralheatking

 

[PhatEd]

What is your pump speed on and what system is it? Is it a combi, or traditional Open vented system etc..

Hi. The pump speed is set to 3. It's not a combi, we have a boiler in the kitchen downstairs and a hot water tank in the airing cupboard upstairs. There are two smaller tanks above it for setting the pressure. He set it to 2 bar when he refilled it.
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Did you have new valves fitted?
Is it a standard ‘branded’ radiator or something fancy or an eBay special?

Hi. Yes he fitted new valves and TRV. It is a branded one from B&Q. Kudox Type 21 double plus Panel radiator White, (H)600mm (W)1600mm. The one it replaced was single panel (H)450mm (W)1100mm.
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I was just using your radiator swop to illustrate that heating engineers ought to follow a strict routine when attending premises. A strict methodology from the start cuts down on the number of possible variables when things do not turn out as expected. I did ask you for the heating flow and return pipe sizes and the comparative old and new rad outputs/sizes in order to help get the problem solved.
Centralheatking

Ah ok no probs.
I did respond re the pipe diameter. Can't see you asking anywhere about the heating flow and rad sizes etc.
The pipe is 6-7mm plastic push fit piping that he extended with couplers to make it wide enough for the new rad. The new rad is this one Kudox Type 21 double plus Panel radiator White, (H)600mm (W)1600mm

 

[centralheatking]

Hi. The pump speed is set to 3. It's not a combi, we have a boiler in the kitchen downstairs and a hot water tank in the airing cupboard upstairs. There are two smaller tanks above it for setting the pressure. He set it to 2 bar when he refilled it.
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Hi. Yes he fitted new valves and TRV. It is a branded one from B&Q. Kudox Type 21 double plus Panel radiator White, (H)600mm (W)1600mm. The one it replaced was single panel (H)450mm (W)1100mm.
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Ah ok no probs.
I did respond re the pipe diameter. Can't see you asking anywhere about the heating flow and rad sizes etc.
The pipe is 6-7mm plastic push fit piping that he extended with couplers to make it wide enough for the new rad. The new rad is this one Kudox Type 21 double plus Panel radiator White, (H)600mm (W)1600mm

I think that the pipe ..plastic push fit is too narrow to serve this radiator, let’s see what the others think.
Centralheatking That rad will be about 2.5kw or more I think 15mm copper would just about cope providing its got no other rads off it and goes back to the 22mm circuit. also plastic pipe has a thicker wall than copper so the inside is further restricted. I tried these things out a few years ago in my last but one house, just to see.
Centralheatking

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Do pipes come out of wall in centre then come down to rad valves, they could have possibly kinked the pipe when they've refitted the radiator back on the wall....Also could be a blockage on one of the 10mm pipes.

As CHKing says, pipes could be undersized depending on length of the run of the 10mm from the main flow and returns. If you turn all the other rads off does it actually get hot, or still nothing?

 

[John.g]

Its hard to imagine that the new rad didn't heat up with all the others off which I think they were except air or kinked piping as above, The ID of the pipework obviously also makes a huge difference, for example if one assumes the rad as 2.5 kw at 75C/65C/50C then it will require a flow rate of 3.6 LPM and 6MM ID needs a diff head of ~ 1M/Meter, 8MM needs 0.25M/Meter and 10MM needs 0.08M/Meter, it would be interesting to know the actual ID of the above piping, all the plastic pipework in my house is ~ 10MM ID. ("1/2 ins OD")

 

[SJB060685]

John are you working off another spread sheet to calculate that? I've done a quick calculation and it doesn't quite add up, close but not quite the same

 

[John.g]

No, picked this up somewhere along the line so probably gives a reasonable estimation?

friction_loss

 

[SJB060685]

I was just going by my college texts books. To be honest there is very little in it so I shouldn't worry.
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My text book only allows for copper pipe though and not what you linked so I've saved that link anyway to calculate for plastic pipe etc.
We were only out by .7 of a litre a minute and pressure was minimal difference

 

[Best]

Think in basic terminology, the original radiator might have been small enough for the microbore pipe runs to cope with the heat loss of the rad.
Replacing with new rad has perhaps x3 or x4 the output and pipes not adequate.
But circulating pump could also be part of the problem.
Over to the installer to take on the problem now, whether he is at fault or not.