Search the forum,

Discuss Please advise on approaches following substandard heating install in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

Messages
3
A number of issues have been raised from a boiler replacement.

Boiler not operating and with no pressure.
Tile damage
Sprawling pipe layout in kitchen
(Retrospective view of alternate option when it was found that promise of removing pipes from airing cupboard could not be fulfilled).
Battery operated thermostat
Wires left terminate but visibly hanging a little above eye level on an inside wall
Air space between external gas pipework and outside wall reaching 67mm
exterior holes made and widened including vent hole are not made good with brick and with colour mismatched concrete sometimes scraped over existing brick

I got in contact with an, I think, large boiler replacement company requesting a quote for boiler replacement which they based on my description of the house and them viewing the google image of the property. I looked up the proposed boiler according to the description and front view picture that I found of the boiler showing the flue going directly up. All boilers that I've previously had including my previous boiler here have had the flue pipe going directly out the back. While getting ready to write an email one of the sales guys phoned to politely phone. I said that I was concerned that the boiler proposed had a verticle flue which was unsuitable and I wanted a flue that could go straight out of the back.

Following our conversation, I then felt comfortable to send this shorter than planned email in which I stated that I wanted to check "the compatibility of boilers to the existing layout of the bungalow" and I attached internal and external photos as shown.

post verbal compatibility check.png

I then got a phone call to, among other things, notify me of a plan to put a gas pipe on the (nine-meter horizontal length) of the front and entrance sides of our bungalow. I said that what I had agreed to was a replacement of the boiler and hadn't agreed to this and, in any case, there was a loft space immediately above ready for use and I was told that this was fine.

The following picture shows the current state of the installation and gives an idea of what went on previously.

WIN_20190910_13_52_22_Pro.jpg


Four rows of the mosaic tiles had been pulled from the wall which broke several of them, the boiler had been placed in a lower position so that its base was just above the electrical fittings, the sockets (which we use for things like the fridge) had been replaced with a blank plate, a network of pipes had been placed in front and down to the level of the countertop inhibiting cleaning and access to the electrical tittings and an additional hole had been drilled through the external wall for an unwanted external run of the gas supply.

The agreed boiler exchange was to swap a system boiler and (leaking) water tank for a combi boiler and the company had agreed to remove water pipes from the water tank containing cupboard and this was in line with our stated plan to knock out the wall between the cupboard and our bathroom to make one larger room. Without notification this plan was dropped by the engineer due to the house water supply entering the building at this point and, while some of our neat vertical pipework was certainly removed, some clearly off vertical and off horizontal pipework was added as well.

After the first day of installation I emailed the company specifying problems as mentioned

four issues.png

and I also phoned leaving a message, knowing that the engineer might better be able to work elsewhere rather than come down with inappropriate parts supplied, in hope that the message might be passed through in time.

Anyway, the engineer came, I explained the problem, I also showed him the neat installation of the boiler as fitted in the kitchen of my neighbour next door and then, told that the engineer would liaise with the company, we waited. Late in the day I was told that they offered to run the gas pipes in the above roof space as requested but that the boiler would stay and I was left needing to assert that this was not what I wanted. Even later on the idea was presented to send the flue up through the roof an idea to which I readily agreed. An alternate option, which came open since the linen cupboard pipes were not being removed, would have been to place the boiler in there, but this wasn't offered.

As per the below the boiler picture, pipes have been directed up through the countertop, not even in line with the boiler but to the right of it and these pipes. I asked for these pipes to be repositioned into the kitchen cupboard space that seems to have been allocated for pipe runs and plumbing. I was told along the lines of that there had already been enough difficulty installing the boiler system's magnetic water cleaner (dirty snowstorm device as I call it, slightly out of the following picture and installed at a diagonal) and that the pipes wouldn't be redirected as requested.

WIN_20190910_15_57_35_Pro.jpg

On review of the work, I'm also unhappy with the slanted installation of the plastic pipe and its unneccesary vertical joint and that the flexible metal mesh pipe system hadn't been installed below the countertop.

WIN_20190911_13_50_56_Pro.jpg

Ideally, all the pipework would be boxed in or at least in a condition from which boxing in could be practicable.

Whereas our previous thermostat had been wired in so that it required no batteries, the new thermostat, the programmer will now require batteries into the indefinite future.

Wires have also been left visibly hanging from an inside wall.

WIN_20190910_13_52_39_Pro.jpg

I was told that the cable (with three cores with black, red and no insulation) were part of a previous install and needed to be checked out by an electrician and removed. I don't know what the wires might have been used for. I think that up to now the bungalow has always had the same heating system arrangement with a boiler in the same position as our previous (probably as old as the house) Ideal boiler, with water tank and cylinder, thermostat and separate programmer and, while there were previous marks in the plaster to show where the wires went behind the boiler, there were no marks to indicate where anything else had been filled in.

The hole where the gas supply pipe comes down was only filled when I requested it and this has been done roughly so that the several bumps are very apparent when lit by the kitchen light.

I am pleased that the gas pipes have been run in the loft as required though, even though the run is shorter than for a supply for a neighbour to an identical boiler, the run is placed at a diagonal above the joists and the outside pipework has been installed like this.

WIN_20190910_15_44_38_Pro.jpg

The pipework comes out of the eves with a 50mm gap between the pipe and the wall, it then comes down by about 240mm to leave a 67mm gap between the pipe and the wall (that's three pipe diameters) and then it bends in a bit to leave a 27mm gap between the pipe and the wall. Our only neighbouring building, with external gas pipes coming down to their meter cupboard, has gas pipes that hug to 10mm from the wall. Our pipe enters the meter box from the side through a sleave of putty rather than from below as is done on our neighbour's house similar guage pipe also to a Worcester Bosche boiler with similar appearance to ours. Our run on the gas pipe runs for about 10 meters (about 200mm up from the top of the meter to the new new hole in the meter cupboard, just over 800mm from the meter cupboard to the eves, about 7.8 meters in the loft mostly at a diagonal and about a meter down to the connection on the boiler).

The outside of our house has not been made good and our previously beautiful brickwork has been left looking like this.

WIN_20190913_13_58_05_Pro.jpg

There's an additional pipe in there that has been added to the outside of the house even though this is not used with any of my neighbour's boilers, a hole for the unwanted external gas pipe run has been added, an enlarged hole has grown where the previous flue had run and holes have been filled with concrete, not of matching colour, which has also been scraped over the bricks.

The pipe going to the outside, while unwanted and added without consent, has been left with a significant air gap unfilled.

Whereas we previously had a wired-in programmer and thermostat, without notification or consent for change to a wireless system, we now have a battery dependent programmer, thermostat. I was shown these controls to the extent of pressing the top button to make the house hotter and the bottom button to make it colder and yet, at some time following the engineer leaving, the heat didn't come on at all.

There's no water that I could find leaking from any of the hot water piping but neither is there any pressure in the boiler.

WIN_20190911_14_47_52_Pro.jpg

The boiler would warm up moderately toward the top but without any of the pipes receiving any of the heat. Concerned with possible heat damage in the boiler I later cut power to the system from the fused spur.

I live in as a carer for my Mum (born in 1936 and now living with mobility difficulties and dementia). We still have hot water as supplied through a power shower and have a small electrically powered radiator but I'd like to get our main heating and hot water sorted well and soon.

Thoughts and advice would be appreciated.

It took a day for the company to decide that the same engineer should come back to work out rectifications and he took another day to just now phone to say he's coming around to look at the heating. The job started last Thursday.

Thanks
 
Greg, when posting a request for comments on work completed, you really must be more concise, it is unusual for a post of this type to have no responses for a whole evening. Matt has explained the lack of response. However, Gas Safe are not interested in quality of work, only contraventions of the Regs.

In truth, the job is a bodge. But you do yourself no favours by complaining about one extra condensate socket. If you had a quote, one would assume that they specified the type of t'stat, and an RF stat is by no means unusual - but I have just tuned in and it is too late to really analyse what has gone on.

Pipes running contrary to joists is not an offence - unless there were plans to use the space. Sometimes, following the contours of the building and other services will increase the pipe run to a degree where bigger pipe is demanded, increasing costs significantly.

A minor issue is that the DCV appears to be on the heating inlet - it should be on the mains side.

I cant really get a feel of why the heating is not working, due to all of the unrequired text - but it may be something as simple as air.
 
It’s a poor install but probably not dangerous.
Why didn’t you use the person who did a good job next door?
If you got an online quote and nobody came to survey the house - this is the type of thing that happens.
 
I think it is a poor job that is obvious, too much detail in post.
If you liked next doors instal thats who I would have used and maybe
shown the installer next door to establish the standard expected.
centralheatking. get someone proper in to re do the job send a concise illustrated report to the company giving them a fixed time to rectify the bodge etc.
 
Greg,

To move forward I would suggest a three prong approach:

Source a recommended heating engineer to check that the boiler is safe to operate and get the system up and running. Thereafter to explain to you how to operate and control it.

That gets heat and water for your Mum, whilst your sort out the rest of the issues.

Source a credible heating expert or surveyor to review the installation against your quotation / specification and prepare a report of a type suitable for use in the small claims court ( assuming you are in England).

Thereafter, write to the installer using the report to indenting the definitive inadequacies and proposed remedial action required. If they don’t respond consider action in the small claims court.

In reality, the only person who is going to fix this is you. The cosmetic remediation required to your installation is extensive and most unlikely to be addressed satisfactorily by the original installer. Whilst you may possibly recover some costs from the installer, you need to source the required local resources to correct matters.

There is no quick fix to your problem, it will take time and money to resolve.

The Gas Safe route suggested in an earlier post will only address issues with respect to compliance with the GS(IU) Regulations - that is not really the heart of your issues ( from what I can see in your photos).

If you let me have your location I may be able to direct you to someone who could prepare a report for you.
 
You have a gas pipe leaving the meter box from the side! this on it's own is not allowed as it should only leave the meter box either via the rear entry spigot internally or through the approved exit point at the bottom of the meter box as per your neighbors, the pipe clip to this external gas pipe run may not even be UV resistant as it looks like a standard internal plastic pipe clip. This gives you a valid reason to question the complete install & a phone call to complain to gas safe expressing your concerns will be a good idea. They will send an inspector out and they will go through the install with a fine tooth comb and order the installing engineer to rectify any breaches of regulations or else face the possibility of loosing his licence.
The rest of the install is shabby but may well be safe, which is gas safes main concern. but I would definitely ask them to come out and inspect the work. Before anyone else comes out to look at it let them decide what needs doing first.
 
Greg,

To move forward I would suggest a three prong approach:

Source a recommended heating engineer to check that the boiler is safe to operate and get the system up and running. Thereafter to explain to you how to operate and control it.

That gets heat and water for your Mum, whilst your sort out the rest of the issues.

Source a credible heating expert or surveyor to review the installation against your quotation / specification and prepare a report of a type suitable for use in the small claims court ( assuming you are in England).

Thereafter, write to the installer using the report to indenting the definitive inadequacies and proposed remedial action required. If they don’t respond consider action in the small claims court.

In reality, the only person who is going to fix this is you. The cosmetic remediation required to your installation is extensive and most unlikely to be addressed satisfactorily by the original installer. Whilst you may possibly recover some costs from the installer, you need to source the required local resources to correct matters.

There is no quick fix to your problem, it will take time and money to resolve.

The Gas Safe route suggested in an earlier post will only address issues with respect to compliance with the GS(IU) Regulations - that is not really the heart of your issues ( from what I can see in your photos).

If you let me have your location I may be able to direct you to someone who could prepare a report for you.
That's a lot of good advice and appreciated. I appreciated that the neighbour's install was neat but I was put off when told that the installer had been willing to not connect the condensation collector leaving all the moisture to be ejected with flue gas because the neighbour did not want to install an extra pipe. I know that this is due to customer requirement and you are right. I should have gone with them.
I'm at BN8 5DQ (the bungalow with the dodgy plumbing) but, on other recommendation, I think I'll start with gas safe.
[automerge]1568706987[/automerge]
You have a gas pipe leaving the meter box from the side! this on it's own is not allowed as it should only leave the meter box either via the rear entry spigot internally or through the approved exit point at the bottom of the meter box as per your neighbors, the pipe clip to this external gas pipe run may not even be UV resistant as it looks like a standard internal plastic pipe clip. This gives you a valid reason to question the complete install & a phone call to complain to gas safe expressing your concerns will be a good idea. They will send an inspector out and they will go through the install with a fine tooth comb and order the installing engineer to rectify any breaches of regulations or else face the possibility of loosing his licence.
The rest of the install is shabby but may well be safe, which is gas safes main concern. but I would definitely ask them to come out and inspect the work. Before anyone else comes out to look at it let them decide what needs doing first.
Appreciated, that's great advice. I've contacted gas safe and they'll get an engineer to make contact here. I appreciate you mentioning safety as it's definitely been on my mind. I hadn't put the boiler on as, with it heating up while not heating the pipes when unpressured, this seemed like a possible recipe for causing damage ... I'm guessing.
[automerge]1568708698[/automerge]
Here's a belated update. The heating engineer came around after other work on Friday (Uxbridge to Lewes) and turned the taps on the flexible hose beneath the boiler to the system (to 'add pressure that was sometimes lost after install') and took photos of the job.
WIN_20190911_13_50_56_Pro.jpg
I don't know if pressure was falling at that time but it has certainly been falling consistently since then. It dropped even more quickly when I turned the thermostat down (as far as I can tell). I've not done extensive tests as I don't want to risk further damage to a system that I don't know would be safe.

I also phoned the engineer directly (I got the number from 1471) and we did a test remotely. WIN_20190914_12_47_10_Pro.jpg
I shut off the valves at the two ends (servicing the first and fifth pipes on the WB boiler) by turning the slots on the vertically aligned screws so that the slots went from being perpendicular from the back wall to being parallel to the back wall and reapplied pressure, which was still lost.

I've also contacted the company directly who responded by saying that they will send an engineer this week.
 
Last edited:
I'm not an electrician but an ex consumer advisor.

Those sockets to me don't look legal. Mains sockets underneath a water tank, what if you have a leak, it's going right
down into the sockets. That to me is like having sockets on the wall above the bath.

Keep all your paperwork together including emails and invoices. Only use a telephone that can record calls and make sure
you record them all.

Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 you have a lot of safeguards and should use them.

If the so called completed job is not what you requested and paid for, then send them a letter giving them 14 days in which
to bring the standard up to how it was agreed.

If after 14 days you have not received any confirmation that they will finish the job or just fobs you off, then you can send
them a 'Letter before action' giving them another 7 days in which to respond.

Taking someone to court isn't as daunting as it sounds, you will first be offered mediation but if that doesn't satisfy you then
you proceed to court.
The magistrate is already way on your side as businesses (in the general term builder) do not have a very good reputation.
 
The magistrate is already way on your side as businesses (in the general term builder) do not have a very good reputation.

Wide sweeping statement that, don't tar the many by the standards of the few.
 
Yes it is wide sweeping and very unfair on those that do great work but in the public eye that is how it is felt, the same
goes with garages i'm afraid.
 
Yes it is wide sweeping and very unfair on those that do great work but in the public eye that is how it is felt, the same
goes with garages i'm afraid.

Not with me it's not.

If I need something doing I will do my homework, see previous work, speak to neighbours and friends. I'll make sure they have a good rep before employing. This I would place well above the price of the job.
 
That job is a nightmare, by anybodies standards, the op is not an experienced fitter, tried to save some lolly got shafted but I dont
think its fit for purpose by any criteria. centralheatking
 
Bengie,

Be careful. You are giving advice with a prediction to the outcome, based on one side of a story posted on an Internet forum. You (presumably) have no idea of the content of the offer from from the contractor.

Whilst I accept that you are trying to be helpful, it may possibly raise false hope to an individual who is probably facing a significant expense in rectifying the situation.

There is a process to follow in these situations and only when that is complete can a rational decision be made as to which route to follow and the likely outcome.

Contractors who undertake straightforward boiler swaps ( by pricing on what I think is an unprofessional manner) are rarely unprofessional in both specifying the extent of their scope and remedial works to decoration and openings et al.

Your comment with respect to the location of electrical sockets and isolation switches may or may not be true. However, they appear to be existing and are probably outside the scope of the contractors work.

Gas Safe, which I appreciate you have not raised will only survey the works with respect to the GS(IU)R. They won’t repair the problems, nor indeed give any advice to the customer. They will however raise any issues found with the individual who undertook the work and the individual / organisation who registered the installation. Whilst this is a useful exercise, it won’t encompass the external controls so does not move the customer very far forward in resolving his / her problem.

I think that this is a particularly sad case and I hope that it can be successfully resolved. In my experience it won’t be quick and will probably end in a cash settlement that closes the matter with both parties being dissatisfied with the outcome.
 
Bengie,

Be careful. You are giving advice with a prediction to the outcome, based on one side of a story posted on an Internet forum. You (presumably) have no idea of the content of the offer from from the contractor.

Whilst I accept that you are trying to be helpful, it may possibly raise false hope to an individual who is probably facing a significant expense in rectifying the situation.

There is a process to follow in these situations and only when that is complete can a rational decision be made as to which route to follow and the likely outcome.

Contractors who undertake straightforward boiler swaps ( by pricing on what I think is an unprofessional manner) are rarely unprofessional in both specifying the extent of their scope and remedial works to decoration and openings et al.

Your comment with respect to the location of electrical sockets and isolation switches may or may not be true. However, they appear to be existing and are probably outside the scope of the contractors work.

Gas Safe, which I appreciate you have not raised will only survey the works with respect to the GS(IU)R. They won’t repair the problems, nor indeed give any advice to the customer. They will however raise any issues found with the individual who undertook the work and the individual / organisation who registered the installation. Whilst this is a useful exercise, it won’t encompass the external controls so does not move the customer very far forward in resolving his / her problem.

I think that this is a particularly sad case and I hope that it can be successfully resolved. In my experience it won’t be quick and will probably end in a cash settlement that closes the matter with both parties being dissatisfied with the outcome.
My experience of the law and via my wife whom is a barrister is exactly
that Brambles states...everybody involved except the legal fraternity get left feeling ripped of and dirty even if you win a civil case or get vindicated in a criminal court its a mucky process and best avoided
....I suppose small claims ct and involving trading stds with a local
council is less mucky. hope it works out for you at least remember the odds at the start for you are 50/50 at best ...centralheatking
 
A number of issues have been raised from a boiler replacement.

Boiler not operating and with no pressure.
Tile damage
Sprawling pipe layout in kitchen
(Retrospective view of alternate option when it was found that promise of removing pipes from airing cupboard could not be fulfilled).
Battery operated thermostat
Wires left terminate but visibly hanging a little above eye level on an inside wall
Air space between external gas pipework and outside wall reaching 67mm
exterior holes made and widened including vent hole are not made good with brick and with colour mismatched concrete sometimes scraped over existing brick

I got in contact with an, I think, large boiler replacement company requesting a quote for boiler replacement which they based on my description of the house and them viewing the google image of the property. I looked up the proposed boiler according to the description and front view picture that I found of the boiler showing the flue going directly up. All boilers that I've previously had including my previous boiler here have had the flue pipe going directly out the back. While getting ready to write an email one of the sales guys phoned to politely phone. I said that I was concerned that the boiler proposed had a verticle flue which was unsuitable and I wanted a flue that could go straight out of the back.

Following our conversation, I then felt comfortable to send this shorter than planned email in which I stated that I wanted to check "the compatibility of boilers to the existing layout of the bungalow" and I attached internal and external photos as shown.

View attachment 40409

I then got a phone call to, among other things, notify me of a plan to put a gas pipe on the (nine-meter horizontal length) of the front and entrance sides of our bungalow. I said that what I had agreed to was a replacement of the boiler and hadn't agreed to this and, in any case, there was a loft space immediately above ready for use and I was told that this was fine.

The following picture shows the current state of the installation and gives an idea of what went on previously.

View attachment 40412

Four rows of the mosaic tiles had been pulled from the wall which broke several of them, the boiler had been placed in a lower position so that its base was just above the electrical fittings, the sockets (which we use for things like the fridge) had been replaced with a blank plate, a network of pipes had been placed in front and down to the level of the countertop inhibiting cleaning and access to the electrical tittings and an additional hole had been drilled through the external wall for an unwanted external run of the gas supply.

The agreed boiler exchange was to swap a system boiler and (leaking) water tank for a combi boiler and the company had agreed to remove water pipes from the water tank containing cupboard and this was in line with our stated plan to knock out the wall between the cupboard and our bathroom to make one larger room. Without notification this plan was dropped by the engineer due to the house water supply entering the building at this point and, while some of our neat vertical pipework was certainly removed, some clearly off vertical and off horizontal pipework was added as well.

After the first day of installation I emailed the company specifying problems as mentioned

View attachment 40413

and I also phoned leaving a message, knowing that the engineer might better be able to work elsewhere rather than come down with inappropriate parts supplied, in hope that the message might be passed through in time.

Anyway, the engineer came, I explained the problem, I also showed him the neat installation of the boiler as fitted in the kitchen of my neighbour next door and then, told that the engineer would liaise with the company, we waited. Late in the day I was told that they offered to run the gas pipes in the above roof space as requested but that the boiler would stay and I was left needing to assert that this was not what I wanted. Even later on the idea was presented to send the flue up through the roof an idea to which I readily agreed. An alternate option, which came open since the linen cupboard pipes were not being removed, would have been to place the boiler in there, but this wasn't offered.

As per the below the boiler picture, pipes have been directed up through the countertop, not even in line with the boiler but to the right of it and these pipes. I asked for these pipes to be repositioned into the kitchen cupboard space that seems to have been allocated for pipe runs and plumbing. I was told along the lines of that there had already been enough difficulty installing the boiler system's magnetic water cleaner (dirty snowstorm device as I call it, slightly out of the following picture and installed at a diagonal) and that the pipes wouldn't be redirected as requested.

View attachment 40414

On review of the work, I'm also unhappy with the slanted installation of the plastic pipe and its unneccesary vertical joint and that the flexible metal mesh pipe system hadn't been installed below the countertop.

View attachment 40415

Ideally, all the pipework would be boxed in or
That's a lot of good advice and appreciated. I appreciated that the neighbour's install was neat but I was put off when told that the installer had been willing to not connect the condensation collector leaving all the moisture to be ejected with flue gas because the neighbour did not want to install an extra pipe. I know that this is due to customer requirement and you are right. I should have gone with them.


Appreciated, that's great advice. I've contacted gas safe and they'll get an engineer to make contact here. X

I don't know if pressure was falling at that time but it has certainly been falling consistently since then. It dropped even more quickly when I turned the thermostat down (as far as I can tell). I've not done extensive tests as I don't want to risk further damage to a system that I don't know would be safe.

You cannot leave off the condense pipe, and expect all the condense to be evacuated via the flue gases/flue. It just will not work. So some confusion there.

What gauge are you reading - on board the boiler or a separate one, normally near the filling loop?
 
Basically sounds like nothing was set in stone what was going to be done throughout the installation, did they charge you for the gas pipe run from meter to boiler as you said you weren’t happy about it , but the truth is that might if only been 15mm pipe if you had a small conventional/ system boiler, so to be fair you had to have that 22mm/28mm gas run , the pipes can be hidden no big deal some MDf and a crooked condense pipe no big deal , workman ship sounds a bit ropey but as long as it’s safe and working i wouldn’t worry , if you are concerned contact gas safe they’ll check it out make sure it’s up to regs
 

Reply to Please advise on approaches following substandard heating install in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

Creating content since 2001. Untold Media.

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Back
Top
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website. For the best site experience please disable your AdBlocker.

I've Disabled AdBlock