USA Pipe diameter affecting gas usage.

[Ulysees]

Hi, I'm being told one thing by an engineer sent by my supplier and another by one from my landlord, I'd greatly appreciate some advice on which ones telling the truth, thank you.

I moved into a flat and found that my gas bills were extraordinarily high, my supplier sent out an engineer who replaced the gas meter, when doing so he commented that the cause of the problem could be that the pipe going from the meter to the boiler was only 15mm when it ought to be 22.

Having checked the meter they said it wasn’t at fault, so I contacted my landlord and told them what the engineer had said about the pipe being the cause; however they insisted that it was the right size of pipe for the boiler.

Although not admitting any fault my landlord agreed to replace my central heating system because it was due for replacement as part of a home improvement program. The engineer who came to fit the new system commented that the pipe going from the meter to the boiler was not the correct size for the new boiler, which is a Worcester Greenstar 30i ERP, so he fitted a new 22mm pipe for it.

Though pleased with the new system I was left with a hefty gas bill due to the previous one using so much gas, so I told my landlord what their own engineer had said and asked for compensation, but they again insisted that the pipe was the right size for the old boiler.

My old boiler was a Worcester 28cdi and I’d like advice on whether the 15mm pipe that went from it to the gas meter was in fact the incorrect size?

I’ve downloaded the installation instructions for this boiler, and on page 5 table 7 it does seem to me to say that it requires a 22mm pipe, however as I’m not an expert I can’t be sure. You can download the instructions on Google by typing Worcester 28cdi manual and clicking the top result on the page which is a PDF of it.

Thank you again for any advice you can offer.

 

[Stigster]

The boiler will only take what it can burn. Bigger pipe does not equal more gas being used. The issue is undersized gas pipes starving the boiler of fuel but in your case the boiler was running fine (I presume). If it worked on either 15mm or 22mm the gas usage would be the same either way.

 

[jonnyswamp]

Can't add much to the above really
Are you on a pre-payment meter or billed
Some pre-payment meters are set to a silly tarriff to recoup the losses incurred by the previous tenants

 

[Ulysees]

Hi Stigster and Jonnyswamp, thank you for your advice.

The engineer from my supplier stated that the reason a 15mm pipe would cause the boiler to use more gas was that it wasn't receiving the amount it required to function as it should, so it would need to operate more frequently in order to suck or draw gas from the meter?

Also if the boiler doesn't require a 22mm pipe then why does it say it does on the installation instructions?

Thanks. Ulysees

 

[Dotty]

Hi Stigster and Jonnyswamp, thank you for your advice.

The engineer from my supplier stated that the reason a 15mm pipe would cause the boiler to use more gas was that it wasn't receiving the amount it required to function as it should, so it would need to operate more frequently in order to suck or draw gas from the meter?

Also if the boiler doesn't require a 22mm pipe then why does it say it does on the installation instructions?

Thanks. Ulysees

There's other factors to take into consideration.

Not going into them though.

 

[Tjdservices]

A little bit of knowledge ......

 

[finchy01]

Whilst worcesters do recommend a 22mm, there are a couple of simple tests we can carry out that often show 15mm is fine. My oclapped out old boiler uses a tonne of gas, a nice new high efficiency one wouldn't. Maybe I'll get off my are and change it one day!

 

[AWheating]

A 28kw boiler can work on 15mm but only if the equivalent length is 3m or less. if the boiler was directly above then it may have been the correct size, if not then it was most likey under sized.

Doubt it was a major factor on your gas bill, probably more to do with heat losses and tennant use.

 

[Ulysees]

Hi AWheating

Thank you for your advice it's greatly appreciated.

My gas bills were £200 per month which was four times what I'd expect because I live in a one bed flat, which I can tell is fairly well insulated on account of the fact that heat dissipates quite slowly.

Now maybe I was mislead about the diameter of the pipe being the cause by the engineer who told me that, but my landlord won't compensate me at all for my bills because they say there was nothing wrong with my previous boiler or radiators, given the amount of my bills do you think they could be right?

Thanks. Ulysees

 

[Tjdservices]

I'm sorry but you moved in, the existing boiler was there, it was inefficient as it was older. Your landlord at there expense has changed the boiler to what I will assume is now an a rated boiler. Your bills are now lower. Accept it for what it is, I don't understand why you would even consider that the landlord should now compensate you.

 

[Ulysees]

Hi Tjdservices

Thanks for your advice, but I was using four times the gas I'd expect to and that's why I feel I deserve compensation, for example my last bill for three months was £60.00, whereas before it was £600.00 for three months, now although that was winter time it still is rather excessive.

As for the replacement of the heating system, surely if my bills are that excessive the landlord would be expected to replace it? Also they only did so as part of an improvement program in which it was due to be replaced anyway.

Thanks. Ulysees

 

[Sharp Point]

If you were my tenant and came in with yours open for compensation, I'd give you notice to leave you ungrateful sod. That's how the cookie crumbles dude, you'll have more money now to waste on whatever you want.

 

[Riley]

Your landlord was under no obligation to upgrade the heating unfortunately so I would just take it on the chin and move on with your new lower rate

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

Must have been something wrong for £200 per month gas bills for a 1 bed flat, but an undersized gas pipe was not the reason

 

[mache]

Must have been something wrong for £200 per month gas bills for a 1 bed flat, but an undersized gas pipe was not the reason

Agreed, something doesn't stack up.
OP, how many bills did you receive after the new meter was installed but before the boiler was changed out. If it all happened in the same month my suspicion would be that the original meter was faulty (despite the claim it was OK) or the meter units did not correlate to the billing units.

 

[Dotty]

It's always possible that a debt was being paid off through the meter....

 

[Ulysees]

Hi,

Thank you Riley, GasmanxxxR1, mache, croppie, bogrodder, Tjdservices, AWheating, finchy01, jonnyswamp and the Stigster for your advice, it’s greatly appreciated.

If it wasn’t the pipe diameter that was to blame for my excessive gas usage then the only other thing I can think of that may have been is my washing machine, you see it had been plumbed in incorrectly in that it had been connected to the hot water inlet when it should have been connected to the cold.

The reason I didn’t think it was responsible is because I only use my washing machine around twice a month, and it seemed to me that such a small amount of usage couldn’t have caused my bill to be so incredibly high, hence I’d like to ask whether you think it could have had a significant effect on it?

Thanks. Ulysees

 

[Riley]

Wouldn't have said so. Do you pay monthly for gas or is it on a key card

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

If it was a pre pay meter it could have been in debt collection mode

 

[Dotty]

If it was a pre pay meter it could have been in debt collection mode

Like I said a week ago!

OP, it may not be your debt but one left over from the previous tenant.

 

[Ulysees]

Hi, thank you for your advice.

It wasn't a pre pay meter, it was a normal billed one and I pay quarterly, it wasn't digital but analogue so I don't see how it could be collecting a debt, and the new one is the same type.

The meter was independently tested by a company called SGS, and I received a certificate stating there was nothing wrong with it, this is why never queried it. However it was the case that the meter made an odd churning sound while in operation like metal churning against metal and then a thudding sound every 5 seconds, which the new meter does not make.

Thanks. Ulysees

 

[Riley]

Am I missing the point why did you get a new meter

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

Saw in the news yesterday that the energy companies mixed up imperial and metric meter readings and a lot of people over paid

 

[Dotty]

Saw in the news yesterday that the energy companies mixed up imperial and metric meter readings and a lot of people over paid

I heard that yesterday too and thought straight away of this thread.

 

[Ulysees]

Hi, thank you for your advice everyone,

In response to Riley's question, they needed to remove the meter in order to test it and have billed me £70 for the new one as the other one wasn't faulty.

I'd like to ask whether any of you think that I may be to blame for my excessive gas usage, it always seemed to me that I couldn't simply because my bills were so high, I had my boiler on it's lowest possible setting and my rooms were not very warm, however I do have 9 radiators if you count the double ones as two, and my heating was on 24 hours a day.

Previously I've lived in two one bed gas central heated flats, one had 5 radiators and the other had 6, and my gas bills if I used my system 24 hours a day were about £20 per week, now I might be wrong about that but at the most extreme I could see myself using £25 maybe £30 but not £50 as I was here.

Thanks. Ulysees

 

[Riley]

If your usage has been compareable then it does seem a bit of a mystery. An older boiler will use more gas but your difference does seem excessive. All the same I think your issue may lie with your supplier not with the boiler. Who was the supplier just out of interest ? I know from personal experience where I have just moved The previous owners of the property hadnt paid their last bill and the supplier tried to pass it on to me.

 

[Ulysees]

Hi Riley

My supplier is SSE Southern Electric.

Thanks. Ulysees

 

[markfxy]

Have you checked the tariff/price per kilowatt you're being charged now against previous bills, we moved into a rented property which previously had a heated pool which was illegally tapped into the gas main the landlord got a prison sentence for it but we paid over the odds for our gas to pay off somebody else's debt until we complained but never got any rebate from british gas even though we tried for two years!!

 

[Ulysees]

Hi,

Thank you Riley, GasmanxxxR1, mache, croppie, bogrodder, Tjdservices, AWheating, finchy01, jonnyswamp, the Stigster and markfxy for your advice, it was greatly appreciated.

This is just an update as I believe I finally found the cause of my excessive gas usage.

You may think I'm rather stupid for not noticing this before but my flat has large single glazed sash windows, which is the only key way in which it differs to the other flats I've lived in.

I suspect that these cause it to be very poorly insulated, I guess we perhaps don't realize the difference that modern double glazing makes to insulation.

I've noticed that there is a constant cold draft when I stand near the windows which doesn't happen with double glazed ones. Also the windows in my living room are twice the size of those in any other flat I've lived in.

However the building my flat is in is also an old listed one made of sandstone, so it may not have cavity wall insulation too. I live on a middle floor thus there's a flat above and below me so I don't think the roof or floor insulation is an issue.

Anyway I tried everything else that you guys suggested such as contacting my supplier etc, and could find no other culprit than the windows or other insulation issue.

Thanks again for your help.
Ulysees

 

[Riley]

Thank you for the update

 

[ShaunCorbs]

wont be heat leaking through the walls normally find them about a foot thick plus

 

[SteveWannadoGas]

Also if the boiler doesn't require a 22mm pipe then why does it say it does on the installation instructions?

If the MIs (Manufacturers Instructions) say it needs 22mm, then that is what it needs.

 

[Riley]

Depending on carrying out your gas pipe sizing calculations you can't make a statement saying that it has to be in 22 when 28 is required based on the calculation and whatever appliances are in the property

 

[Dotty]

If the MIs (Manufacturers Instructions) say it needs 22mm, then that is what it needs.

I think I've worked out why you haven't passed your ACS yet.

 

[Masood]

If the MIs (Manufacturers Instructions) say it needs 22mm, then that is what it needs.

No MIs will state a certain pipe size. They may give a minimum, but they will always specify correctly sized pipework.

As Riley said - it might need bigger pipe, calculations will tell you what's needed. But equally, if the meter is right next to the boiler, even 15mm might work.