Oil: Inserts for compression joints in flexible plastic coated copper pipe??

[Smt]

If plumbing a feed from a domestic oil tank to a domestic oil boiler using the 10mm or 15mm flexible green plastic coated copper pipe (supplied in coils) must brass inserts always be used in conjunction with a compression fitting? Have they always been used?

Is it inevitable a joint will leak if one is not used (even if that very expensive oil jointing compound has been liberally applied to the olives)?

I understand the consequences of a leak. :-(

Thanks for any replies.

 

[kimbo]

Plastic pipe can only be used underground and WITH inserts you must use the correct plastic pipe (not hep or speedfit) once you come out of the ground you must use copper, either with flared joints (preferrable ) or compression fittings with inserts.
You cannot use the same inserts for plastic as the ones for copper.

 

[dontknowitall]

As above.

Kimbo, you took the words right off my keyboard ...

 

[Smt]

Thanks.
The pipe in question is being routed above ground although I am surprised to see that copper is not used underground as every installation I have seen around this part of the country so far uses plastic coated copper pipe underground. Mind you, none of the installations are modern, so maybe plastic pipe might is a recent requirement (unless they are all cowboys out here).

I'm not used to this rural stuff. I'm much more at home with cities and gas.

 

[kimbo]

SMT you will have to use copper in this case. There was an engineer who put a oil line underground without any protection, it was passed by building control. There was a leak and the engineer got a huge fine because he did not do it as he was trained to do despite building control passing it.

 

[Smt]

I've just visited the Oftec web site. In their literature here:

http://www.oftec.org/documents/EG_dom_oil_feed_pipes_aw.pdf

they state this:

"Buried oil pipes must be of appropriate material such as plastic coated copper or approved plastic underground pipe".

However, all I'm interested in is the use of inserts on plastic copper pipe and whether a pipe will always leak if they are not used.

Thanks.

 

[wheeto]

whether a pipe will always leak if they are not used.

No, in the same way as not all speedfit coupling will leak if a superseal insert hasn't been used on a plastic joint. But do you want to take the risk?? How many couplings will you have to inspect in order to "do the job right"?

The small-bore (table W) tube is much softer than 15 / 22mm etc table X copper, and inserts are required to prevent the pipe deforming as the olive is crushed. They also reduce the chance of a leak / weep later on if lateral force is applied to the tube where it enters the fitting.

As posted above, flare fittings are even better.

 

[kimbo]

Will the sun come up in the morning ? If you dont do it right the first time you cannot guarantee anything. The inserts are required for a reason, if you get a leak and the place gets flooded with oil it will cost you thousands of pounds .

 

[dontknowitall]

SMT you will have to use copper in this case. There was an engineer who put a oil line underground without any protection, it was passed by building control. There was a leak and the engineer got a huge fine because he did not do it as he was trained to do despite building control passing it.

What's the point of having building control? If they pass it, surely they're at fault? Doesn't surprise me too much though - everyone wants to wash their hands of everything these days, and take some money along the way too.

 

[kimbo]

The argument was that the oftec guy knew what he should have done and didnt do it, building control wont prosecute their own blokes.

 

[Smt]

In an attempt to gain a direct answer and to stop wasting others wasting their time I'll describe the whole episode.

I used to be a corgi registered plumber and heating engineer in a city. I never did oil work, always gas. Recently a friend bought a rural property and asked if I would help him run the oil lines to his Aga and boiler. I didn't really want to but owed him multiple favours so agreed. I genned up before I went, learning about regs, fire valves etc. When I came to buy the stuff the local merchants had all but a flaring tool and inserts, and told me that no-one used inserts for compression joints on oil anyway so there was no call for them and they did not stock them. I was dubious but only had this one chance to buy materials. I bought a tub of Rocol Oilseal hard setting sealant. I laid the line in plastic coated copper, both 15mm and 10mm. As Oftec had led me to believe that laying 15mm plastic coated copper underground was fine (see link above) I did this, but did not need to joint it. However, both 15mm & 10mm plastic coated pipe is jointed with compression joints (with Rocol Oilseal) in multiple places above ground.

I've been worrying about it ever since. I will not able to return to my friends house for a very long time.
I have inspected other lines since to see if historically inserts were used for jointing W table copper, and can't see any evidence that they were

Any pointers from the experienced to the likelihood of the line leaking would be very much appreciated.

 

[Gray0689]

Don't need inserts with plastic coated copper I have fitted hundreds of oil line never even heard of inserts for it
But never fitted green ones always been White plastic coated

 

[dontknowitall]

Don't need inserts with plastic coated copper I have fitted hundreds of oil line never even heard of inserts for it
But never fitted green ones always been White plastic coated

It's quite a new rule (last couple of years or so). I've heard a number of plumbers who say you don't require inserts and the merchants have told me likewise. OFTEC, however, is quite clear - either flared joints or copper inserts.

As to not finding them on existing installations, it will be rare when they are used due to the rule being new. Big advantage of using them is that it's much easier and quicker to making a leak free joint.

PS - I'm not trying to judge people or have a go, simply stating what the current regulations are and, of course, all regulations are there to be broken, whichever trade we're in!! Slightly off topic, at my school (1970's) they used to have a rulebook for new boys but stopped producing it in the end as the first two weeks for the new boys was spent in competitions to see who could be witnessed to break all the rules in the shortest time ...

 

[WHPES]

Yes you do need inserts! Look at your OFTEC books!! If you're not OFTEC you shouldnt be touching oil stuff anyway!

 

[Smt]

If it's a new rule then there must have been tens of thousands of installations in the last few decades that used compression fittings on plastic coated copper pipe without a leak. As I know how much to tighten a compression fitting and used a good amount of the expensive Roco Oilseal on the olives I'm beginning to feel a touch less worried.

I would have preferred to do the job to modern regulations but as I didn't I am trying to understand the risk.

BTW. I discovered the old oil line. It had been there for maybe 30 years. It was two inches under the grass. Where the new installation is under the garden the 15mm plastic coated copper pipe is laid 450mm deep, bedded in sand, covered in earth, then roofing tiles, then earth, then very wide warning tape, then more earth then turf.

The old installation had never leaked.

 

[WHPES]

If you use that reasoning, it is like saying the Fukushima nuclear reactor worked well for 30 years without a major incident so all should be OK.

I'm not GasSafe registered and wouldn't dream of touching gas...........

 

[Ian10261]

I help out an oftec lad here and there, apparentley the deal is... soft copper or plastic then inserts required on both or alternatively a flared joint on the copper. Hard copper, no inserts required on a normal compression, or alternatively a flared joint. No plastic is allowed above ground, except plastic coated copper.

 

[Gray0689]

Yes you do need inserts! Look at your OFTEC books!! If you're not OFTEC you shouldnt be touching oil stuff anyway!

You reckon lol well guess what I do and I will lol

 

[WHPES]

As I said I'm not Gas Safe and as such wouldnt dream of touching gas.

If you're not OFTEC registered you won't be up to date on regulations and requirements, you cannot self-certify, and one day you will do something which goes wrong / leaks etc and come a cropper. You cannot prove you are competent and you will have no comebacks. An OFTEC engineer will confirm it has been fitted incorrectly and you will be for the high jump.

 

[Smt]

Whether I should have done it or not and whether or not a person is required to be Oftec resgitered to lay oil pipe is another question. The deed is done. The pipe is laid. (And if it helps get a direct answer I can definitely guarantee I will never touch oil again!)

I would be grateful if someone could confirm that up until recently compression joints were commonly used on plastic coated copper pipe (W table) without inserts.

 

[WHPES]

It was common practice some time ago, not sure how long ago.

Compression fittings have never been allowed underground as far as I am aware (should always be flared)

Soldered fittings have also never been allowed on oil lines.

 

[Gray0689]

As I said I'm not Gas Safe and as such wouldnt dream of touching gas.

If you're not OFTEC registered you won't be up to date on regulations and requirements, you cannot self-certify, and one day you will do something which goes wrong / leaks etc and come a cropper. You cannot prove you are competent and you will have no comebacks. An OFTEC engineer will confirm it has been fitted incorrectly and you will be for the high jump.

I live in northern Ireland know lots of oftec boys never do they fit inserts to copper and they not heard of thisso I'm guessing it's just an English thing

 

[Smt]

Thanks for your direct answer WHPES.
The oil installation is temporary and to be in service for a maximum of three years. The property is being renovated and converted to use a mixture of ground source heat pump (heating), wood (via central wood burning stove), electricity and bottled lpg (cooking).
I am beginning to feel marginally less fretful now.

 

[Gray0689]

It was common practice some time ago, not sure how long ago.

Compression fittings have never been allowed underground as far as I am aware (should always be flared)

Soldered fittings have also never been allowed on oil lines.

No soldered fittings now that's just silly suppose your not allowed oil in the pipes too lol

 

[dontknowitall]

No soldered fittings now that's just silly suppose your not allowed oil in the pipes too lol

There are good reasons for this!

 

[pmac10]

There are good reasons for this!

solder being well known for its high melting point, just the type of joint you need in a fire, eh?

 

[SimonJohns]

If you're not OFTEC you shouldnt be touching oil stuff anyway!

Not really true

Building control can sign off oil lines and tanks

Service and maintenance doesn't require a registration

Commissioning is a lil grey but would agree you should be registered to do this

I know the arguement about competency but I'm not talking abut that

 

[Gray0689]

solder being well known for its high melting point, just the type of joint you need in a fire, eh?

Is that not what a fire valve is for!!!

 

[Smt]

Are they fitting the flexible soft copper tube that comes in reels though?

 

[kimbo]

The regulations regarding inserts have been out longer than 2 yrs, the problem was when they brought them out no one sold them and like everything oftec does it is never very well publicised so no one fitted them. The merchants should not be advising trained engineers or even the public because they are not trained in the regulations. If they advised something that was wrong they could be sued in a civil court.
Oil regulations are not backward enforcible you only have to look at the number of oil tanks that dont comply with current regulations.
Yes compression fittings will eventually leak on soft copper, you will find it wont be a drip but only what we call sweating which is a damp stain. The soft copper pipe under compression by the olive eventually gives up and is compressed to the point that it does not push back against the olive, the use of the insert is to make sure the joint is compressed by the olive onto the insert which will not give and therefore wont weep.
The use of the inserts as I understand it is a british standard, how many merchants know about british standards. It sounds like you have done the best you can and I am sure there are a lot of people out there even qualified oftec engineers by the sound of it who would have done exactly what you have done, I would not be happy if my own oil installation was not done by the book whether I agreed with it or not. All oftec engineers stand to lose their registration if they do not do their job properly and we do get inspections.

 

[Smt]

Thanks kimbo for putting things in context. Very clearly put and very helpful indeed.

 

[WHPES]

I have a War Office specification document of my Grandads somewhere which states never use soldered joints on fuel lines, so its not new!