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New system. Noisy taps.

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DRM46

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Hi, I’m renovating my house and a completely new plumbing system is being installed. New combi boiler, new pipe work, new everything.

All is installed (except kitchen area) and the boiler is to be fired up for the first time on Friday.

Problem is the taps are very noisy, as are the pipes when taps are turned on. It sounds like a blowtorch but much louder and rages through the house. Happens on both hot and cold. Also, water comes out taps with such force that it spews out of basins and splashes out of the bath. Inline isolator valves are fully open and it’s even louder if they are closed down at all.

I going to talk to the plumber on Friday before he does any more work but want to be prepared and not allow myself to be fobbed off. (This happened earlier on boiler position).

Why would the taps be so loud? What can be done to quieten them? Should flow restrictors have been fitted? Can I expect the taps to be quieter and less forceful once system is fully fired up?

Taps were advertised as being suitable for any system and between 0.2 and 10 bar. All are waterfall mono mixers.

So far the plumber has simply told me to be careful turning them on unless I want water everywhere and that in time I will get used to it. I could maybe live with that but not the noise.

Toilets are quiet. Outside tap is quiet and doesn’t blast water everywhere.

Any advice is appreciated. I cannot accept this noise and want to sort this out before things become more expensive to fix.

Kind regards
 
SimonG said:
Check pressure and fit a pressure reducing valve.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. If it needs a PRV is this something I should expect to be charged extra for? Should the plumber have checked pressure and installed one already were pressure too high?

I’ve lost trust in the plumbers word after the boiler issue.

The quote is for 10k and to supply and fit complete new system and to fit only sanitary ware. To my mind a prv would be in their price, would it not?
 
If you supplied it's not down to the plumber in my opinion.

If you supplied then you should have ensured suitability.

But then again if I'm doing work and customer is supplying then I check suitability before they order them. But that's me.
 
SimonG said:
If you supplied it's not down to the plumber in my opinion.

If you supplied then you should have ensured suitability.

But then again if I'm doing work and customer is supplying then I check suitability before they order them. But that's me.
Click to expand...

I asked if the taps were ok. He said yes, they were good.

Everything was on site before he started his work and advice given as to what I needed to buy

I should add, we’ve already had three other problems with him not checking appliances before installing pipes and therefore having to rip out walls and tiles to reposition them later on. I’ve already been cost an extra thousand in repairs by all this. Im getting very tired of it and am having to go without on other parts of the house to pay for his mistakes.

.
 
I have a few customers with those type of taps , they do tend to be slightly noisier, main problem I see with them is if the pressure is too high the water goes everywhere .
 
They tend to be noisy as you have to throttle them down on the local isolation valves.

The first time I fitted that type of tap I walked around for two hours looking like I'd wet myself.
 
Unfortunately that’s what these taps do. By design they will pee out everywhere as nothing directs it into the sink other than gravity
 
Were they cheap taps? And by cheap, I mean less than £80?

I recently fitted a (Deva) Toolstation kitchen deck mixer for a customer. It was the cheapest I would put my name to, but it did have BS5412 so I thought it would be okay. Turned out to have ceramic mechanisms, so can't have been BS5412 (which relates to a washered mechanism). Water sprayed out harshly. Customer accepted it, but I vowed never again: it wasn't an installation I was proud of at all.

My gut feeling is you can't blame the plumber for this. Your water pressure will not be above 10 bar, so it is a tap issue. The only thing it 'could' be is restrictive isolators making the noise, so perhaps would be quieter with full-bore isolators, but then it would spurt out even worse. Obviously the tap isn't truly designed with the pressure you have in mind.
 
I agree probably requires a prv, they are not expensive - about 0.3% of your budget.
I have found that a flow limiter fitted somewhere between isolators and taps is better for noise than restricting via the isolator valve, however some waterfall taps have tiny little internal channels for the water and are inherently noisy.
 
Riley said:
Unfortunately that’s what these taps do. By design they will pee out everywhere as nothing directs it into the sink other than gravity
Click to expand...


Thanks Riley, and others.

The water hits the basins fine, it’s just it then rebounds three feet in every direction.

And what about the noise?they are very, very loud with lever in all positions and that’s with isolation valves fully open. If a tap is running in the bathroom you wont hear a tv or radio in the living room.

I had these taps in my old place on. combi system with no problems.

I will talk to him about the pressure reducing valve. I don’t know how to check pressure myself to see if a prv is needed but flow rate is about 20litres on bath tap and 8 on the outside tap. Would a prv reduce that further? When two taps are on at the same time flow reduces to a trickle on everything except the bathroom taps and the noise quietens from the taps but not the pipes.

Apologies for all the questions. The plumber doesn’t seem interested at all in helping me find solutions to this.
 
More replies whilst replying myself. Thanks again.

No not under £80. Says they comply with BS5412 but it has ceramic disc.

It seems changing taps might be the best option. I will call the supplier tomorrow to see why they are advertised as suitable.
 
Just my observation but you obviously seem to have a bit of chip on your shoulder with this plumber but it does seem to be a bit of a breakdown in communication on both parts. What was the issue with the boiler positioning?
What boiler is it?
Had you and him sat down and agreed terms?
Who is responsible for what etc?
Did he design the system from scratch or is there some old pipework involved??
It seems very odd that your outdoor tap is massively underpowered compared to your bathroom. Likewise it seems very odd that your bathroom flowrate does not diminish when other outlets are opened up. Hence us asking about a pump or an accumulator. Something doesn’t sound right in the design stage here causing issue but if you two haven’t communicated then it will be all guesswork on both sides hence why discrepancies are arising now. Communication is key in the renovation game as things can very quickly be done wrong which need putting right. As I say just my humble opinion but I come across this a lot.
 
No, no chip on shoulder, just a growing distrust at the costly mistakes and being lied to about the boiler.

As for the boiler it was agreed to go one place with his boss. When he turned up he started to put it elsewhere. When questioned he said it was against regs to put it in the agreed place so I reluctantly agreed to the new location and left him to it. I later found out there was no reason it could not go in the originally agreed place and his boss confirmed that.

As for communication we talk, agree, then he does it wrong. Whenever he does something wrong he lies to his boss about why it went wrong. For example the shower. I gave it to him before he started, he installed the pipes and told us to tile. We tiled. He goes to fit the shower and says the pipes are in the wrong place and must be changed. He told his boss I’d changed showers, which is not true. He had the shower weeks before but by his own admission to me, didn’t open the box to look at it. Every time this happens his boss wants to charge extras to move things to the correct position.

It’s been one thing after another and now we have this noise. He told me the taps were good quality and suitable.

The design is his. Everything is new, even the stopcock, no old pipes anywhere.

I just want the job done to a good standard and to pay the agreed price. He’s already cost me an extra grand in repairs and I can’t afford any other screw ups.
 
Not being funny a couple of mistakes particularly in a renovation would be acceptable. Bin him.

Re the boiler. Is he gas safe?? Is his boss?? If he’s the engineer and his boss isn’t his word goes in terms of install
 
A couple of mistakes, yes, which is why I haven’t said much up until now. I’m in the trades myself and know all does not always go smoothly.

Binning him a whole new can of worms. Would rather learn more about the problems and find solutions that I can talk to him about. If he continues with the “ you’ll have to live with it” attitude then yes, he will have to go.

Yes, gas safe. Both.
 
Well okay I do understand where you’re coming from but you can’t moan about wasting money if you are continuing paying the person that keeps doing things wrong. What boiler have they fitted and how many bathrooms
 
At some point, someone who knows what they are doing needs to measure the static pressure in the system to check that it is reasonable (and fit a regulator if it is not). They should then check the sizing and installation of the pipework and make sure it is correct for the flow rates needed at each outlet. If it's undersized you will get turbulent flow, which sounds pretty much as you are describing.

Good quality taps may help, but If the pipework is not correctly sized, routed and clipped the system will never be as quiet as you want.
 
Thanks Riley and Chuck.

Boiler is Valaint 30kw. One bathroom.

Yes, Chuck, you’re right. I’ve just called the retired plumber I used to use and he’s going to come round and have a look for me. I didn’t want to bother him but I need an experienced pair of eyes on this.

Thanks to everyone who replied.
 
Hi again. Had my old plumber cast his twigger over things and he said all that’s visible is ok apart from some missing and unclipped clips.

Had the pressure checked and it just over 6 bar. A PRV is to be fitted to see if it helps.

Boiler is now on and heating is very quiet and responsive. Nice hot water from taps except the bath tap which is not hot enough to have a hot bath, only a warm one. Shower is the same and not great on flow as no cold water can be mixed with it.

Installer said that’s to be expected and comes with having a combi.

I’d like to ask you fellas in the know if this is acceptable?

I’m not exactly happy at the prospect of no hot showers or baths and the bath taking over 10 minutes to fill. The wife and girls even less amused.

Thanks in advance for any replies.
 
If it’s 20 litres from the hot tap it will only be warm, the boiler will produce around 10 lpm hot.

It all sounds like six of one, half a dozen of the other with both of you.
If someone asks will this tap work, all you can do is look at the info available and say yes or no.
I would always say get a known brand tap/shower
 
Riley, yes it gets hotter at a reduced flow. Fully open is warm at 10 litres minute, if I reduce it to 5 litres it gets hot. That’s quarter of an hour to run a bath, though.

Also, if the bath hot tap is on all other hot taps reduce to a dribble. Again, the installer tells me this is normal.

Scott D, Hudson Reed taps. Not the best but no problems with them in the past.

Gasmk1, thanks, it’s good to have it confirmed that this isn’t right. Problem is it’s me doing the investigating and I know very little.
 
DRM46 said:
Riley, yes it gets hotter at a reduced flow. Fully open is warm at 10 litres minute, if I reduce it to 5 litres it gets hot. That’s quarter of an hour to run a bath, though.
Click to expand...

If the water is coming in at 10°C and you want your bath to be at 40°C that's a temperature rise of 30°C. For 10 litres per minute this requires 21 kW delivered to the water. Assuming your bath is a typical 70 litre a 30kW boiler should be able to fill it in around 5 minutes.

So, based on your description, it seems to me that your boiler is only transferring about 10kW to your hot water. This is a third what it should be able to manage, a discrepancy that is big enough to merit investigation by a Gas Safe Registered heating engineer.
 
Last edited:
Have you measured 10lpm?
Mains coming in at this time of year is
DRM46 said:
Riley, yes it gets hotter at a reduced flow. Fully open is warm at 10 litres minute, if I reduce it to 5 litres it gets hot. That’s quarter of an hour to run a bath, though.

Also, if the bath hot tap is on all other hot taps reduce to a dribble. Again, the installer tells me this is normal.

Scott D, Hudson Reed taps. Not the best but no problems with them in the past.

Gasmk1, thanks, it’s good to have it confirmed that this isn’t right. Problem is it’s me doing the investigating and I know very little.
Click to expand...
have you measured 10lpm and 5lpm?? Only ask as if the incoming mains is colder this time of year then you’ll get less temp rise at full flow. Yes combi trait
 
Thanks Chuck and Riley. Yes, I measured with a 13 litre bucket. 80 seconds to fill with tap fully open. Two and a half minutes with it open enough to get hot water.

Right, I see, so regardless of what temperature the hot water is set to, a combi is not necessarily going to reach that temperature. I’m learning some things here that I wish where explained at the consultation stage. I was sold on “mains pressure instant hot water and no need for a power shower”, instead I’m looking at something slower and cooler than the system that was took out but with better central heating.

Chuck, thanks. Next time I use a plumber I’m going to check he can give me numbers like you just did and be as helpful as Riley. A gas safe engineer is going to look at it. I’ve also learnt that this installer is not gas safe, as I was originally told, and he needs to get someone else in to commission it. I’m going to ensure I’m there when it happens to ask questions.
 
Then he has no argument re your previous message regarding siting of the boiler. BIN them then report them it is illegal to commission someone else’s work. If the boiler has not been commissioned why is it even on
 
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