New compact ensuite: Concealed macerator needed to fit in stud wall

[Pricklebob]

We are renovating our house and after a lot of playing around I have worked out the best floorplan for upstairs. It means the only place I can fit our ensuite is in the middle of the house, the toilet will be 2.7m from the main soil stack in the family bathroom. It is in a straight line and I have checked the direction of the floor joists, but I can't get sufficient fall on the waste pipe to use a standard soil pipe, so we need a macerator.

Due to the small size of the ensuite, we need to use a back to wall or wall hung toilet with the cistern in the stud wall so that there is enough space between the toilet and shower. Ideally I would like the macerator to be in the wall too (I know we need access panels for cleaning/maintenance). The macerator will also need 2 inlets for the shower and washbasin waste, the shower waste will be below floor level though so not sure how we connect it?

This is the only macerator I have found (google search) that will do the job...

Saniflo Saniwall Pro Up Macerator Pump, Wall Hung Toilet Frame

Saniflo Saniwall Pro Up - 6110. Lowest price guaranteed. Paypal Accepted. Trading Online Since 1999.

www.plumbworld.co.uk

Though not sure if this is the same one, it's cheaper and the measurements look slightly different, but still uses a lot of the same photos (confused?) Saniwall Pro Up Macerator Pump | Macerator Pumps

Are there any others out there that might be better? Also, how do we deal with the waste from the shower if it's below the height of the macerator side inlets? Also, is this a job that a good DIYer could do or should we get a professional plumber? We do have an electrician who will be doing all the wiring work. Thanks for any help and advice.

 

[Ben-gee]

Yes the saniwall is probably a good bet for you.

As you have spotted it won’t be able to take the shower.

You have four options:

1) raised the tray so that you can use the macerator to pump the shower waste away.

2) run the shower waste between the joists and connect it into the existing stack.

3)run shower waste between joists to an outside wall; then take it to a gully or stack depending on what’s there.

4) drop shower waste down through ceiling and then run it in boxing to appropriate discharge point.

It depends on how you describe good diy - but yes none of this is rocket science.

However, poorly done this en-suite will cause you no end of grief in the future. How much grief and how near in the future depends on how well it’s done.
On this note - please tank the shower fully if you are going to tile it.

 

[Pricklebob]

Yes the saniwall is probably a good bet for you.

As you have spotted it won’t be able to take the shower.

You have four options:

1) raised the tray so that you can use the macerator to pump the shower waste away.

2) run the shower waste between the joists and connect it into the existing stack.

3)run shower waste between joists to an outside wall; then take it to a gully or stack depending on what’s there.

4) drop shower waste down through ceiling and then run it in boxing to appropriate discharge point.

It depends on how you describe good diy - but yes none of this is rocket science.

However, poorly done this en-suite will cause you no end of grief in the future. How much grief and how near in the future depends on how well it’s done.
On this note - please tank the shower fully if you are going to tile it.

Thanks so much for the advice. Will definitely tank it (and the other ensuite we are putting in between the kids' rooms). I think my best option is probably to raise the shower then the waste can be routed into the macerator, otherwise I am worried there will be too many inlets into the main stack at the same level. Taking it outside or through ceiling won't really work due to the layout.

Will I need an anti-siphon trap in the shower? If I just run the shower waste straight to main stack it's 3m (with a bend). I guess if I can run the shower into the macerator then a normal trap will be ok (it will be approx 130cm run around the walls above floor level).

Standard of DIY is a mix of my husband and our friend who is an electrician and odd job man, they are pretty competent between them. I do all the planning, so hopefully as long as I have planned it properly and made sure they have all the materials/equipment to do the job we should be sorted. Next thing I'm looking at is ventilation/extraction to make sure we don't have issues with condensation etc since no windows.

 

[Ben-gee]

3m with a bend is fine to the stack with a normal fast flow trap.

Much preferable to run shower to stack rather than to macerator.

If you do run it to macerator; base of tray (underside) has to be quite high not certain on the saniwall but it’s at least 150mm on the saniaccess. I’ve just done one and base was 180 mm off floor. (After a time the diaphragm switch will deteriorate and need a greater depth of “water” in the unit to operate - this is the time when poop comes back up in the shower...)

Like I say, much better into the stack.

 

[Pricklebob]

3m with a bend is fine to the stack with a normal fast flow trap.

Much preferable to run shower to stack rather than to macerator.

If you do run it to macerator; base of tray (underside) has to be quite high not certain on the saniwall but it’s at least 150mm on the saniaccess. I’ve just done one and base was 180 mm off floor. (After a time the diaphragm switch will deteriorate and need a greater depth of “water” in the unit to operate - this is the time when poop comes back up in the shower...)

Like I say, much better into the stack.

Thanks for the help, I will find a way to run it straight into the main soil stack. I need to have a good look at the pipe fittings available as that stack will have the sanitary ware from both the family bathroom and this new ensuite joining it at the same point. Thankfully the other new bathroom will be joining into a separate stack at the other side of the house and will be much more straightforward (against outside wall directly above the existing stack from the original downstairs WC)

 

[Ben-gee]

Don’t worry it will be fine, best off going to your local plumbers’ merchant for a good selection of fittings.

Might have to explain gravity to your electrician friend - they just connect each end and don’t have to worry about what happens in between! ( plumbing is harder/ better...stands back with hard hat on ...)

 

[Pricklebob]

We are creating an ensuite in the middle of the house, it's the only place it can go, therefore no outside windows. The room will only be 114cm x 165cm and 240cm ceiling. It will have shower, washbasin and WC and regular use by 2ppl. I want to ensure that we have a really really effective fan installed to avoid condensation problems. We do have access to the roof space above, distance from the centre of the new ensuite horizontally to outside wall is about 3.3m for ducting out through gable end (further if we take it up to soffits). I would really like it to be silent or very quiet due to it's position in the house (backs onto 2 kids' bedrooms).
What is the best type of fan? Is it an inline extractor? How do I calculate what power fan we need? Also, is it possible to join up with a fan in the family bathroom and duct them out together so only one external grill/vent is required on the front of the house? Currently there is no extractor fan in the family bathroom but when we refit it we will add one.
Thanks so much for any help and advice.

 

[Ben-gee]

Don’t duct them together.

Get a nice expensive mixed flow fan (rugby ball style), silent - do you live in the real world?

You’ll find the silent fans in aisle 3, between the sky hooks and the tartan paint.

 

[Pricklebob]

You’ll find the silent fans in aisle 3, between the sky hooks and the tartan paint.

I had been browsing this site at fans trying to work out from the massive choice what is best and there are several that claim to be silent or extremely close to silent, like this one....

S&P TD-350/100-125 SILENT ECOWATT | Just Fans Ltd

S&P TD-SILENT ECOWATT - 350/125-100 Model, Max Airflow - 350 m3/h Motor Power - 19 Watts Absorbed Current - 0.14 Amps Weight - 5.0 Kgs Temperatur

www.justfans.co.uk

in fact a search on silent fans on that site comes back with quite a range...

Just Fans Ltd

it comes in a huge range of power/sizes, obviously the price increases with the power (up to £1k which I am not prepared to pay), but these claim to be almost silent/extremely quiet. I would rather pay more for the quietest fan possible that will do the job.

 

[rpm]

As somebody who makes their living from installing and repairing macerators I advise fitting one only when you really have no other choice and the Saniwall is not one I would recommend. I was there at the launch of them and the pump/ motor is very little different to other models, was only created to satisfy the fad for wall hung toilets and imho not well thought out.

If you do run it to macerator; base of tray (underside) has to be quite high not certain on the saniwall but it’s at least 150mm on the saniaccess. I’ve just done one and base was 180 mm off floor. (After a time the diaphragm will deteriorate and need a greater depth of “water” in the unit to operate - this is the time when poop comes back up in the shower...)

Ben is in general correct in what he say`s above however there are valves inside to stop any back flow of water to a shower but these only work if the unit has a regular service plan carried out (I am assuming that like most you live in a hard water area) or a modification is carried out to the pipe during installation. Some people like the idea of warm soapy water going through the unit as it cleans the inside and the discharge pipe but the downside is that the shower is out of use in the event of say a power cut so that is your call.

My advice is a macertor and the BTW pan if you must.

 

[Murdoch]

A few thoughts:

Macerators can be very noisy, so using them during the night can wake light sleepers
Don’t combine fans between rooms in domestics as they rarely work
Make sure there is sufficient airflow under the door so the fan can pull air into the room or it won’t work
fit an isolation switch for the fan so it can be switched off at night

Maybe ask your spark what he recommends for the fan and check the run for the vent pipes ....

 

[centralheatking]

Is this a flat or a house....because the noise issue might affect others in the building and if its leasehold then the neighbours and freeholder need to approve ...centralheatking

 

[rpm]

Is this a flat or a house....because the noise issue might affect others in the building and if its leasehold then the neighbours and freeholder need to approve ...centralheatking

It`s a house Rob and doesn`t sound leasehold if they are spending seroius money.

We are renovating our house and after a lot of playing around I have worked out the best floorplan for upstairs. It means the only place I can fit our ensuite is in the middle of the house, the toilet will be 2.7m from the main soil stack in the family bathroom. It is in a straight line and I have checked the direction of the floor joists, but I can't get sufficient fall on the waste pipe to use a standard soil pipe, so we need a macerator.

Macerators can be very noisy, so using them during the night can wake light sleepers.

The old ones were noisy however installed with a bit of know how the cistern flush makes more noise unless of course the silent re fill type is used.

 

[Pricklebob]

As somebody who makes their living from installing and repairing macerators I advise fitting one only when you really have no other choice and the Saniwall is not one I would recommend. I was there at the launch of them and the pump/ motor is very little different to other models, was only created to satisfy the fad for wall hung toilets and imho not well thought out.

Ben is in general correct in what he say`s above however there are valves inside to stop any back flow of water to a shower but these only work if the unit has a regular service plan carried out (I am assuming that like most you live in a hard water area) or a modification is carried out to the pipe during installation. Some people like the idea of warm soapy water going through the unit as it cleans the inside and the discharge pipe but the downside is that the shower is out of use in the event of say a power cut so that is your call.

My advice is a macertor and the BTW pan if you must.

We have to use a macerator, I have been trying to sort the layout for the last year and this is the only realistic position for the ensuite. I have also checked every option for getting the required fall on a 110mm soil pipe to join a stack and due to doorways, joist directions etc there really is no way we can get the required fall so it has to be a macerator. I am happy with a BTW toilet instead of wall hung, but still want the macerator concealed within the wall or some sort of furniture. Is there another make/model you would recommend instead of the Saniwall?

We live in an area with very SOFT water so no worries about that. The shower in the ensuite is likely to be an electric shower so no worries about it being out of action in the event of a power cut, so we could run all the fittings in the ensuite through the macerator

Thanks so much for your advice.
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It`s a house Rob and doesn`t sound leasehold if they are spending seroius money.

The old ones were noisy however installed with a bit of know how the cistern flush makes more noise unless of course the silent re fill type is used.

You are quite right, it's a freehold detached house. I don't have to worry about neighbours, just my own family, from my research then the macerators are much quieter than they were 20yrs ago or so. We are doing the house to be our long term home and not just for a fast profit, so within reason we are prepared to invest and so yes I will pay more for good quality almost silent extractor fans, possibly a quiet/silent refill cistern but probably not worth it since we will have the macerator anyway and good quality, but not ridiculously expensive sanitaryware etc. My main reason for wanting to use the back to wall toilet, wall hung wash basin and frameless shower doors is because this ensuite will be extremely small, I am investing in pocket doors to avoid having to leave space for the door opening, so I don't want it to feel cluttered. I am building storage into the stud walls!