Neighbour's Waste Pipe

[JoeyLDN]

Hi

Looking to 'crowd-source' some public opinion on this one.

I bought a studio apartment on 30th September 2022 and I'm currently working with contractors to refurbish it. I'm 39 and it is my only property (I'm no property tycoon).

Next door's bathroom is on the other side of the wall to my bathroom.

The waste pipe from their toilet comes through the wall into my bathroom and then runs laterally along the bathroom floor to the rear wall. The pipework is boxed in along the floor but - make no mistake - it is not hidden below the floorboards, it is in my bathroom, and on my bathroom floor. Their wastepipe then joins the waste pipework of my own toilet which connects to the exterior building fall pipe.

Not only does this look messy, but I have been informed that the previous owner notified the Managing Agent that, on occasion, when next door flush their toilet, their waste can backup and appear in my toilet. I have had the property for 24 days now and that hasn't happened once but the mere suggestion is obviously unpleasant. I plan to rent the property out and that situation will, quite rightly, be completely unacceptable to a tenant. In fact, the contractors have suggested that if it does happen then any future tenant may ask me to put them up in a hotel until I remedy the problem during an active tenancy.

I have checked the paperwork for the property and can find no evidence of any legal right for next door to have their waste pipework inside my bathroom.

I am thinking of writing to the neighbours to explain that I have purchased the property and am having it refurbished and as part of that work I will be removing their waste pipework from my bathroom and I will be sealing up the bathroom wall on my side. I thought I could give them one month's notice to reconfigure their own plumbing in their own bathroom.

Is this reasonable do you think? Should I be offering to put them in touch with a plumber, or giving them more time to remedy etc? Or rather than tell them what I'm going to do and give them notice, should I offer them the chance to come over, take a look, and suggest a solution?

The Building Managing Agent told me that they are assholes who complain about everything (his words) so I'm conscious that it might be better to go in strong and decisive rather than giving them an inch in case they try to take a mile. On the other hand, I don't know anything about them and never met them so they could be perfectly reasonable people that just don't get along with the Agent.

What do you think people?

Thanks
Joe

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Nope and unless your going to pay them to move there pipe don’t go down that route as technically it’s not your pipe either it’s the buildings serviced eg managements

 

[oz-plumber]

To me its sounds like a bodge job that someone has done to fix a problem in the past.

See if building management have any records when this was done.

 

[JoeyLDN]

Nope and unless your going to pay them to move there pipe don’t go down that route as technically it’s not your pipe either it’s the buildings serviced eg managements

Hi Shaun. I'm not suggesting that it's my pipe; quite the contrary. I'm saying it's someone else's pipe in my bathroom. I'm happy to take it out of my bathroom and give it back to the owner. Nor am I suggesting that they pay for the removal; I will pay to remove the pipe. What they do in their own bathroom is their business. Per my post, I am in contact with the Building Managing Agent about this. He agreed that the pipe shouldn't be there and that the back-up issue is unacceptable and did not object to the pipe being removed from my bathroom.

 

[JoeyLDN]

To me its sounds like a bodge job that someone has done to fix a problem in the past.

See if building management have any records when this was done.

This is a good point. There's nothing in the conveyancing paperwork to say why the pipe is in my bathroom and Building Management don't know either. However, that's not to say that the neighbours next door don't know something about why the pipe can't be in their bathroom. If it's just because it's awkward/unsightly for the pipe to be in their bathroom then I guess that's tough luck for them, but if there is literally no way of the waste pipe running through their own bathroom then I guess I need to play fair there and accept the position (albeit with some added solution to prevent the back-up risk). I wonder whether the pipe could be placed under the floorboards as well. Maybe I should ask the neighbours to allow a shared/independent plumber to look at both properties and give a view before I state that I'm going to remove it.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Hi Shaun. I'm not suggesting that it's my pipe; quite the contrary. I'm saying it's someone else's pipe in my bathroom. I'm happy to take it out of my bathroom and give it back to the owner. Nor am I suggesting that they pay for the removal; I will pay to remove the pipe. What they do in their own bathroom is their business. Per my post, I am in contact with the Building Managing Agent about this. He agreed that the pipe shouldn't be there and that the back-up issue is unacceptable and did not object to the pipe being removed from my bathroom.

But you can’t expect them to pay to reinstate as it’s working now so if you remove you will have to pay them to have it reinstalled

 

[snowhead]

Flats and appartments quite often have services running through other properties and have the right to do so.
The property next door won't have put the pipe in after they moved in, it would have been put there during initial building / conversion but should have been put in so that it functions correctly.

When you say "Their wastepipe then joins the waste pipework of my own toilet which connects to the exterior building fall pipe."
What you mean is both wastepipes join together and then connect to the exterior pipe, or your pipe joins to their pipe then connects to the exterior.

How do you expect the neighbour to reconfigure their pipework when it appears to need to pass to the rear of the building?

You may find your water and or electricity supply pass through another flat, would you be happy if that was disconnected by others?

Before you do anything stupid, you need to speak to a Solicitor specialising in leases and you'll most likely find you cannot do what you propose.

 

[JoeyLDN]

Flats and appartments quite often have services running through other properties and have the right to do so.
The property next door won't have put the pipe in after they moved in, it would have been put there during initial building / conversion but should have been put in so that it functions correctly.

When you say "Their wastepipe then joins the waste pipework of my own toilet which connects to the exterior building fall pipe."
What you mean is both wastepipes join together and then connect to the exterior pipe, or your pipe joins to their pipe then connects to the exterior.

How do you expect the neighbour to reconfigure their pipework when it appears to need to pass to the rear of the building?

You may find your water and or electricity supply pass through another flat, would you be happy if that was disconnected by others?

Before you do anything stupid, you need to speak to a Solicitor specialising in leases and you'll most likely find you cannot do what you propose.

To answer your questions:
1. both wastepipes join together and then connect to the exterior pipe
2. The rear wall of both of our bathrooms is the rear elevation of the building
3. No. I do think one has to make a distinction between hidden wiring and water pipes crossing property boundaries, and then other people's turds appearing your toilet bowl.
4. I contacted Irwin Mitchell Solicitors today to get their view. They have asked me to send over the lease, title, and property report to read over.

 

[snowhead]

3. No. I do think one has to make a distinction between hidden wiring and water pipes crossing property boundaries and then other people's turds appearing your toilet bowl.

The neighbours pipe being there is not the reason for the waste backing up, there are millions of toilet waste pipes joined together that don't back up.
It's the way they been joined together or possibly a partial blockage in the combined pipework that's the problem.

 

[JoeyLDN]

Hi

I’ve been plugging away at this and thought I’d circle back with progress in case its useful for anyone else. I know I initially asked for opinions but it would seem that some of the responses were opinion presented as fact...

• 'I would need to pay the neighbours to move their pipe' – you wouldn’t know this to be true without reading the lease and the other legal paperwork.
• 'The pipe belongs to the building' – As above, dependent upon lease and other provisions
• 'I can’t expect them to pay to reinstate their own pipe' - As above, dependent upon lease and other provisions
• 'Moving the pipe would be stupid and you’d most likely be advised by a solicitor that such action would be disallowed' - As above, dependent upon lease and other provisions

The Solicitor (Senior Associate) has now completed a review of the lease, report on title, and title register and confirmed that – assuming we can show that the pipe serves only next door (which my contractors have already confirmed to me, and Building Management have concurred with) – then there is nothing in the property documentation or in law that obliges me to retain their waste pipe in my bathroom. The positioning of their pipe in my bathroom – because it is just used for their flat – may amount to trespass under the law. The Solicitor is speaking to the Litigation Team to clarify how best to approach the situation (e.g. they could assist me writing an informal letter, or they could issue a legal notice straight off the bat).

In any case, before anything happens, I’m going to update Building Management with the legal view and keep them involved. I would prefer to progress the matter in sync with Building Management and as diplomatically as possible with the neighbours. At the same time, all I want to do is refurb my own bathroom and have my own toilet work properly and I won’t have someone else’s waste pipe impeding that.

The pipe and its boxed enclosure takes up about 2.5sqf of floor space in the bathroom which equates to about £4500 worth of square footage in what is already a small property. The solicitor made the point that, as an alternative outcome, if the pipe were to remain, I should expect appropriate compensation.

Hopefully this is useful for info for anyone else who might be in the weird situation of having pipes used only by their neighbour running through the interior of their own home!

Thanks
Joey

 

[Ric2013]

Thank you for telling us that you are right and we are wrong. Your opening comment was that you wanted to crowd-source some public opinion. People gave it and now you are telling them that it is dependent on the lease and other provisions. Well, of course - you asked for a crowdsourced opinion which will be based on reasonable assumptions. You won't get good legal advice on here, but what some of us lot know is that sometimes it's better to get your bathroom done and the flat rented because every month's delay is another month's rent not received. Obviously you need to sort the blockage issues.

I'm not sure the price is entirely based on the square footage. The main value of a flat is being recognised as a habitable and legal dwelling.

My croudsourced opinion is that the pipe was there before you moved in and probably before the neighbours moved in. Any normal person in your position would allow it has a right to be there and work around it, perhaps ask the neighbour for a contribution towards the cost of improving the shared section that blocks. You may be entirely right, but I bet you are the first person to check in this level of detail. The pipe logically was installed by someone who had access to both properties. It's possible someone was being sneaky but also entirely likely the intention was to create a right for that pipe to be there and to be connected to a shared section. Possibly your neighbours will have more money than you and will use that money to fight this legally on the assumption that eventually you'll run out of money before they do. I'm sure the legal profession loves it when people insist on being right. If, on the other hand, they decide to comply, don't expect any favours from them in the future... possibly not the best position to be in as a BTL landlord?

If there's a paperwork cock-up which somehow allowed someone to install a pipe through a neighbouring flat without it having a right to stay there, then I suppose you'll have to make the neighbour's house uninhabitable for them if they are left without a working toilet at all and let them, in turn, see what legal comeback they have against whoever is responsible for the cock-up. It would, of course, be fitting if this mistake proves to have been repeated elsewhere in the building with your waste pipe passing through another flat and you find yourself on the receiving end of the same treatment.

I'm going to say it again. The blockage or poor design of the drainage system is the reason waste is backing up in your toilet bowl. You don't think you have your own private waste pipe going all the way to the Thames, do you?

 

[JoeyLDN]

I'm not sure why you're so upset about this.

Anyway, further update. The Building Landlord is sending over their own Surveyor to look at both flats as well as the exterior fall pipe with a view to making a determination on the matter on behalf of the Landlord. All being well, that should happen on Friday next week so it will be interesting to hear that perspective.

 

[Ric2013]

I'm not sure why you're so upset about this.

Anyway, further update. The Building Landlord is sending over their own Surveyor to look at both flats as well as the exterior fall pipe with a view to making a determination on the matter on behalf of the Landlord. All being well, that should happen on Friday next week so it will be interesting to hear that perspective.

Not upset. Just giving you a different perspective on the matter. Please do keep us informed as it will be interesting to hear what the landlord (the freeholder, I'm assuming) has to say.

 

[JoeyLDN]

I received the Surveyor's report this morning. It states: "Unless there is a definite easement of some sort that permits the pipes to travel from one flat through another, the pipework serving each flat should be contained within each flat and link to common pipes outside the flat."

There is no such easement as confirmed by my lawyer.

The report (which was not commissioned by me) goes on to make two different recommendations, both of which involve removing next door's waste pipe from my bathroom with next door running their own waste pipe through their own bathroom and their own kitchen.

So in summary the Surveyor has confirmed that next door's waste pipe should not be in my bathroom, the Lawyer has confirmed that I have no legal obligation to keep it there, and the Agent in conjunction with the Freeholder have confirmed that I am free to handle the matter.

To the point above ('Any normal person in your position would allow it has a right to be there...'), more than a dozen 'normal people' have now been involved in looking at this matter objectively and not one of them has concluded that next door's waste pipe has any right to be in my bathroom; that view is reserved solely to a few people on this thread.

I am speaking to my contractors about the Surveyor's recommendations and will most likely share the Surveyor's report, Agent's correspondence, and Legal opinion with the neighbour to see if we can come to some mutual agreement about a way forward.

 

[oz-plumber]

Good to hear you persued this matter to your full extent.
And good to hear your positive outcome.

What I don't like from your perspective is the Agent & Freeholder have confirmed " you are free to handle the matter"

Are they saying, you and your neighbour can sort the issue out between yourselves - and work out costing together?

If I were you, I wouldn't be contributing anything towards their rectifications.
I would be giving them a date of 6 months or so and telling them on that date, their services running through your property will be cut off.

You may need to do more homework!!

Keep us updated with this one.

 

[Timmy D]

I received the Surveyor's report this morning. It states: "Unless there is a definite easement of some sort that permits the pipes to travel from one flat through another, the pipework serving each flat should be contained within each flat and link to common pipes outside the flat."

There is no such easement as confirmed by my lawyer.

The report (which was not commissioned by me) goes on to make two different recommendations, both of which involve removing next door's waste pipe from my bathroom with next door running their own waste pipe through their own bathroom and their own kitchen.

So in summary the Surveyor has confirmed that next door's waste pipe should not be in my bathroom, the Lawyer has confirmed that I have no legal obligation to keep it there, and the Agent in conjunction with the Freeholder have confirmed that I am free to handle the matter.

To the point above ('Any normal person in your position would allow it has a right to be there...'), more than a dozen 'normal people' have now been involved in looking at this matter objectively and not one of them has concluded that next door's waste pipe has any right to be in my bathroom; that view is reserved solely to a few people on this thread.

I am speaking to my contractors about the Surveyor's recommendations and will most likely share the Surveyor's report, Agent's correspondence, and Legal opinion with the neighbour to see if we can come to some mutual agreement about a way forward.

I’ve only just seen this post but agree with this.

On daily basis I work up London in converted to flats, townhouses. Never have I come across what you describe. A vertical stack yes, horizontal, nope.

After reading the first post, my first though was that’s not right, the pipe needs to go.

I suspect that sometime in the past, your neighbour did a bathroom renovation and wanted to remove their own pipe. Found yours in the wall and connected.

I’d be interested if the above could be proven. Can you look at the external stack and see if there is an unused/capped off connection that may have previously been in use?

 

[Ric2013]

There is no such easement as confirmed by my lawyer.

Has s/he confirmed that there can be no easement by prescription? If so, then it sounds pretty clear-cut in your favour.

To the point above ('Any normal person in your position would allow it has a right to be there...'), more than a dozen 'normal people' have now been involved in looking at this matter objectively and not one of them has concluded that next door's waste pipe has any right to be in my bathroom; that view is reserved solely to a few people on this thread.

By 'normal' people, I meant householders, not industry professionals. Most people will do anything for a quiet life. I'm actually more like you in that I want things to be right. To give you an example, my neighbours recently took it into their heads to repaint my fence using acrylic paint. This was an annoyance as the fence already had a very special paint treatment that I had chosen for its long-term maintenance properties and the (sloppy) application of acrylic muddies the waters. Legally, my neighbours have no right to paint the fence which is my sole property (as has been accepted and agreed by my neighbour's landlord who has always left me to maintain it at my expense) and I'm sure I could pursue a civil case should I wish (but I CBA). In practice, I have found that most 'normal' householders would not care if their neighbours painted the side of the fence facing away from their garden.

Hope you see where I am coming from - obviously if your proposed new bathroom layout justifies the hassle, then you obviously have to go through with it.