URGENT Leaking hot water cylinder pipe

[Ric2013]

My feeling is the failure of the pilot light staying on is likely to be unrelated to your use of the boiler. Theromocouples don't last forever and sometimes become increasingly reluctant to work eventually failing altogether, or the pilot jet has slowly become blocked (not sure by what, but then I'm not a gas installer).

If you're that worried about contagion, and really want to do belt and braces, can you not find a gas installer willing to follow all the precautions to the letter, allow him/her in to do the work, keep the work confined to that room, and then vacate the room where the boiler is for 3 days?

 

[bluemermaid]

Thank you for your reply Ric.

I have read they are the most common causes.

The plumber said he could take a look tomorrow, so I am going to have to be brave and go for it, before the colder weather comes, when I will need the boiler.

Unfortunately, I won’t be able to avoid the room for 3 days, because it’s in the kitchen.

I won’t be able to confine the work to one room either, because I want him to look at the leaking hot water cylinder as well and maybe some problems with the radiators in other rooms too. I have saved up a lot of jobs, including a leaking dishwasher pipe as well!

He has promised to wear a mask and gloves and weather permitting, I am going to stay in the garden while he has a look tomorrow. I have also asked that we communicate through our phones while he is here. Of course, he will be here for longer when he does the actual work, so I might not be able to stay in the garden for that.
I am going to open all the windows for ventilation.

I am still so nervous! It will be the first time anyone has been inside the house since the pandemic began.

 

[bluemermaid]

Hi Ric and All

Just an update to say, you were right, it was the thermocouple. The plumber replaced it today and the pilot light stayed on. Hooray!

He emphasised the need for a whole new system. If I want to wait until I feel safer from Covid, (as it will take 3-4 days to install new system - he recommended a combi boiler), he can just fit a new hot water cylinder. He thinks that will be a waste of money though, as it will be thrown away when I have a new boiler installed.

I am leaning towards just the new cylinder until I feel safe but it will be just my luck if the old boiler finally conks out in the middle of the winter and then I will be kicking myself.

I have noticed a whistling sound now when the boiler is off. I asked the plumber if it's coming from the pilot light and he said yes. It never made that sound before but I didn't want to question what he was saying. Maybe someone here can explain why it is making that sound now, when it never did in the past?

I opened every window in the house and 2 doors while he was here and I stayed in the garden. He asked if his mate could come in and check the hot water cylinder, while he checked the boiler. I was reluctant to have 2 people in the house. One was bad enough but I said yes all the same.

I stayed out in the garden for ages even after they'd gone and then when I finally came inside, I left the windows/doors open for hours. I hope all the precautions have kept me safe!

 

[Ric2013]

Possibly he's also adjusted the pilot light and it's burning with a bigger flame hence the new whistling sound?

 

[bluemermaid]

I think he might have, because when he first checked the problem, I asked if the flame was hitting the old thermocouple enough to heat it and he said it was when the flame was on full. So I assume he had adjusted it at that point. I too think he may have left it on full. He said he bent the new thermocouple to sit in the flame properly but it sounds like he left the flame on full as well.

Again, I don’t like to question him but shouldn’t he turn it back down again? It wasn’t a small flame before and was working fine for many years before the thermocouple went bad. If the flame is on full, it will cost me more and is there any other reason it shouldn’t be on full? Could it cause detrimental effects to the boiler in time?

He has given me 2 quotes since, which I asked for. One for new hot water cylinder and one for system upgrade to combi boiler. Because of my fears of Covid, I will probably go for the hot water cylinder, as it will take less time inside the house and less people, (additional person to plumber and mate to remove asbestos flue. Also roofer for new flue but I expect he will stay outside but may need to come in to speak to the others), which lowers the risk a bit.

Do you think I am crazy to waste my money on a new cylinder, when I will have to upgrade the system when I feel safe, meaning the new cylinder gets thrown away? Maybe I could keep the boiler going for the lifespan of the new cylinder but would that be a crazy thing to do too? The only time I can remember the boiler going wrong for my parents over the last 40 years was when it was serviced a couple of times. Can’t remember what went wrong.

I will be getting the plumber to service it when he fits the new cylinder. I know it is a very inefficient old boiler. I am rather fond of it though for sentimental reasons! I can’t believe I am saying that when I spent so long trying to persuade my Dad to replace it but now my parents have gone everything in the house has sentimental attachment for me. Plus the fact, it has done us proud lasting so long.

I felt quite offended, when the plumber seemed to be taking the michael out of the old pump behind the boiler, (I didn’t even know it was still there, as new one fitted). He exclaimed to his mate, “oh my god, look at that! It’s like something from the second world war!” I found his tone quite rude. I am probably being over sensitive after losing my dear parents recently.

I am still so curious to know what model of Vulcan it is. I have seen Vulcan 50 on a big metal part inside and also a label saying cf 40/50. I can’t find anything online about the cf 50 model or what it was called. It was fitted by the Council before we moved in, in the early 1970s.

Sorry for long post!

 

[Chuck]

I don't think it would be 'crazy' to renew the cylinder at this point. It will probably be a relatively small cost compared with updating the whole system and removing asbestos, which can cost a small fortune. When the time comes to replace the boiler you can decide between a combi, in which case you write off the cost of installing the cylinder, or a system boiler and keep the cylinder. It's possible to have a combi with a cylinder, which is a system that can work well in a biggish house as you get 'instant' hot water for the kitchen from the combi and use the cylinder for baths/showers. You make the decision based on the circumstances at the time, it's difficult to predict what's going to happen to energy costs and installation costs.

Replacing a boiler that old is going to yield a significant reduction in your gas consumption so you are burning money just by delaying its replacement.

You might want to think about moving out for a couple of weeks while the work is done. (Forget covid, I wouldn't want to stick around while the asbestos is being removed.) Maybe rent a holiday cottage for a couple of weeks out of season?

 

[exedon2]

Just had a chat with a even older colleague that used to subcontract for me.
We from memory think the basic model was just called vulcan with a output number after it .
More up market was a viceroy with controls on front both of these were conventional flue. The balanced flue model was called the autostat
At a guess I would say your pump is a old green SMC .

 

[Ric2013]

Agree not crazy. Combis have their limitations in terms of the amount of hot water that can be obtained at any one time so they aren't for everyone. I'm at my father's house now (his house has what is almost a combi) and I do miss the 20 litres per minute flow my hot water cylinder at home provides, but I only miss it when I run a bath and it is nice to have hot water instantly rather than have to wait for the cylinder to warm up. Depending on your circumstances you might have a new boiler put in but choose not to go for a combi model at all and to keep your cylinder instead.

In fairness to your Vulcan, old boilers did have amazing lifespans, and were relatively low maintenance, but at the cost of reduced efficiency. My own boiler isn't a combi and it dates back to 1988. It's doubtful whether a replacement would make strict economic sense since I only use around £400 gas a year (it might make environmental sense, but so would becoming vegan and that wouldn't cost me £xxxx upfront). If a new boiler makes sense for you is your decision to make.

In terms of your pilot light, I can't say what setting the chap has given and whether it is right or not and I'm not competent to judge what is a 'correct' setting anyway, but I can't see it being too high damaging a heavy cast iron heat exchanger. My mother's old house ran a higher than necessary permanent pilot light from 1990 until she sold the house in 2012 and a gas installer commented that the boiler seemed to be in good condition given it's age. The pilot may use a little extra gas if it is higher than necessary, but I doubt it will be noticeable and if, as I suspect, you have a semi-gravity system (pump stays off when heating hot water only?) the extra heat will mostly circulate into your cylinder so won't really be wasted.

 

[bluemermaid]

I am so appreciative to you guys. You have made my day with your replies. Thanks so much!

You have scared me about the asbestos though Chuck! I did ask the plumber whether I would need to leave while it was being removed and he said, we would only need to go out in the garden. Is that still not safe? I remember an electrician saying we'd have to leave the house if my parents had the fuse board upgraded years ago, as it contains asbestos (that is still in situ as well. I also read artex ceilings have asbestos. So, it is in multiple places here).

Many thanks exedon2 for asking your colleague about the Vulcan. Really kind of you. It's so great to finally know! A shame they didn't give it a name like the other models. Maybe I should name it myself! Great to know about the pump too.

Many thanks Chuck and Ric for saying I wouldn't be crazy. I wondered, because the plumber kept saying I would be wasting money having a new cylinder.

We didn't discuss in any detail the best option for me, so it's good I am not rushing into the upgrade he suggested with a combi. He recommended a combi, because I live alone and would save money by not heating the cylinder each day, then not using all the hot water, only to heat it again the next day. I didn't tell him that I prefer baths to showers though (shower is electric btw). I can see the advantage of having hot water on tap all the time and never having the inconvenience of it running out though. On the other hand, inconvenient waiting longer for a bath to fill.

It is a 4 bed house with one bathroom (there is a cloakroom downstairs with hot water tap to basin) but just me here.

Thank you for defending our Vulcan Ric! I really appreciate that. As you say, they have amazing lifespans and from what I've read, modern boilers don't last anywhere near as long and I've read combi boilers often develop faults and are pricey to fix. I don't think people should dismiss or make fun of the old boilers so easily, (apart from the environmental issues and cost to run, as you say, depending on circumstances) and appreciate the robustness and longevity they had.

I enjoyed reading about your boiler. Makes me feel like I am not such a freak after all with my lovely relic from the past. I think if I was a plumber, I would be interested in the history of my profession and if I saw an old boiler and pump that I'd never seen before, I would have respect for it, not make fun of it. I am being quite hypocritical saying all of this, as I nagged my dad a lot about upgrading and couldn't understand why he didn't want to (apart from the cost of course). Now I know more about it, I can understand where he was coming from. Sorry Dad.

I recently switched suppliers and I'm paying £64 a month total for gas and electricity. I am not working due to my illness and not claiming benefits either. So, I did try to economise last winter by keeping the heating off as much as possible (difficult when you are home all day). I bought a heated throw, which has been a godsend but it was freezing, every time I went out into the hall/kitchen. Not looking forward to that this winter. Maybe I can use more, as the excess £££ has been building up in my account over summer, as I was hardly ever heating any water, due to the leak in the cylinder (I noticed the leak slowed right down doing this) and then the pilot light went out, so no gas was being used at all.

Thanks so much as well for explaining about the pilot light. It's a relief to know it won't harm the boiler and that it won't make much difference to cost. Yes, you are right, the pump stays off when heating hot water only.

Btw, the quote for cylinder (plus replacing some leaking radiator valves) was: £696 (inc VAT) and the quote for system upgrade was: £4,980 including VAT (that includes removal of asbestos flue by a professional and includes a roofer).

 

[bluemermaid]

Have just seen a bad review concerning baths, (I prefer a bath each day to shower), for the Vaillant 830 combi boiler the plumber quoted for:-

Vaillant Pure 830 Combi 6 months ago
This is a product review, not aimed at Screwfix who are consistently brilliant. Having taken advice I've had this installed to replace an old fashioned 23 yr old (fully working) Potterton boiler. The flow rate into the bath is so so slow. Vaillant quote 12.4 L/minute, we get 8. It's 15 minutes to get 6" of hot water into the bath and that's with no other tap on. Wouldn't recommend this to anybody.

 

[Ric2013]

It's disappointing to see Screwfix quoting flow rates for a combi boiler in terms of litres per minute without specifying what temperature increase can be expected at that flow rate. Will mislead many people. That said, I'm not sure where the above reviewer gets the 12.4 l/minute statistic as it is neither stated in the installation instructions nor on the Screwfix website...

 

[bluemermaid]

It's disappointing to see Screwfix quoting flow rates for a combi boiler in terms of litres per minute without specifying what temperature increase can be expected at that flow rate. Will mislead many people. That said, I'm not sure where the above reviewer gets the 12.4 l/minute statistic as it is neither stated in the installation instructions nor on the Screwfix website...

Is this typical of how long it would take to fill a bath just 6 inches with a combi boiler though, or just a problem with this one? Wouldn't be ideal for me if so.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

doesnt make sense

on average a stnd bath holds around 100-120l

there getting 8 lpm from there mains cold and it takes 15 mins to get 6"so around 1/3 capacity ish

8x15 = 120l so a full bath

me thinking the boiler is not at fault

 

[Chuck]

You have scared me about the asbestos though Chuck! I did ask the plumber whether I would need to leave while it was being removed and he said, we would only need to go out in the garden. Is that still not safe?

I think that you need to get your advice from the people that are actually going to do the removal. If it's a straightforward job with easy access I guess it may only take a few hours from start to finish.

 

[bluemermaid]

The plumber would be making arrangements with the relevant professional, so I would only see them on the day but of course, they would advise at that point.

 

[bluemermaid]

Please could one of you advise a good adjustable spanner to buy to adjust the packing nut in a radiator valve. I think that’s what the nut is called. I want to see if I can stop the small leak there.

 

[Ric2013]

Please could one of you advise a good adjustable spanner to buy to adjust the packing nut in a radiator valve. I think that’s what the nut is called. I want to see if I can stop the small leak there.

You won't go far wrong with Bahco. That said, adjusting a gland packing nut shouldn't need much force, so any adjustable spanner is likely to be good enough for that job.

me thinking the boiler is not at fault

I reckon it's an illegal DIY boiler install and it's been done badly and now the installer is blaming the boiler. In any case, sounds very much like the reviewer is confused because, as you say, the maths is incoherent.

 

[bluemermaid]

Thanks Ric. Can you tell me what size though, as I have seen all different sizes?

 

[Ric2013]

Thanks Ric. Can you tell me what size though, as I have seen all different sizes?

Well, the point is the jaw opening (the width the spanner need to be to fit the size of the nut (measured across two opposite sides of the hexagon (i.e. across flats)) is adjustable from nil to whatever the maximum jaw opening is for that particular spanner so, in that sense, there is no such thing as a too big adjustable spanner. Most 6" length adjustable spanners will open to at least 24mm (just under an inch) so any of those would be big enough for the average gland nut. Longer spanners will have wider jaw openings and will give you more leverage but are increasingly bulky and can be annoying in confined spaces.

I find an 8" length adjustable spanner to be a generally useful size.

 

[bluemermaid]

Well, the point is the jaw opening (the width the spanner need to be to fit the size of the nut (measured across two opposite sides of the hexagon (i.e. across flats)) is adjustable from nil to whatever the maximum jaw opening is for that particular spanner so, in that sense, there is no such thing as a too big adjustable spanner. Most 6" length adjustable spanners will open to at least 24mm (just under an inch) so any of those would be big enough for the average gland nut. Longer spanners will have wider jaw openings and will give you more leverage but are increasingly bulky and can be annoying in confined spaces.

I find an 8" length adjustable spanner to be a generally useful size.

Thanks for your help again Ric.

I will probably go for this one:

 

[bluemermaid]

Well, the point is the jaw opening (the width the spanner need to be to fit the size of the nut (measured across two opposite sides of the hexagon (i.e. across flats)) is adjustable from nil to whatever the maximum jaw opening is for that particular spanner so, in that sense, there is no such thing as a too big adjustable spanner. Most 6" length adjustable spanners will open to at least 24mm (just under an inch) so any of those would be big enough for the average gland nut. Longer spanners will have wider jaw openings and will give you more leverage but are increasingly bulky and can be annoying in confined spaces.

I find an 8" length adjustable spanner to be a generally useful size.

I bought a 6" Bahco adjustable spanner in the end.

I tried adjusting the gland packing nut but it is stuck solid. I can't loosen or tighten it. Any advice please, or should I leave well alone?

 

[bluemermaid]

I bought a 6" Bahco adjustable spanner in the end.

I tried adjusting the gland packing nut but it is stuck solid. I can't loosen or tighten it. Any advice please, or should I leave well alone?

I bought some PTFE tape as well, so I could try repacking to stop the leak, if tightening the nut didn't work (watched some videos) but as I said, the nut is stuck solid, so can't do anything at the moment.

 

[Ric2013]

Probably limescale. WD40?

 

[bluemermaid]

Probably limescale. WD40?

Tried some 3in1 oil and still couldn’t move it at all. Also, tried heat from a hairdryer.

I experimented afterwards with a different radiator that still has a shiny clean gland/nut and I couldn’t budge that either way either!

What am I doing wrong or have they just been screwed in super tight by plumbers in the past and I am not able to grip them well enough or budge them with my little spanner?

When I watched utube video, the guy used next to no force at all, so I am thinking they have just been screwed in extremely tight?

 

[bluemermaid]

Tried some 3in1 oil and still couldn’t move it at all. Also, tried heat from a hairdryer.

I experimented afterwards with a different radiator that still has a shiny clean gland/nut and I couldn’t budge that either way either!

What am I doing wrong or have they just been screwed in super tight by plumbers in the past and I am not able to grip them well enough or budge them with my little spanner?

When I watched utube video, the guy used next to no force at all, so I am thinking they have just been screwed in extremely tight?

Here is a pic of the non-leaking newer nut. Leaking one is same type. As I said, can't undo either of them.

 

[Ric2013]

Well, that gland nut has been tightened fully home. Normally there are a few threads visible - are the others all fully home all as in the picture?. This leads me to think that possibly that valve does not have a traditional gland packing and so you won't be able to service it in the way you intended. It should still unscrew, but if it was tightened fully home in the factory, you'll struggle to undo it now.

Of the non-leaking valves you have, is there a definite resistance to rotation when you turn them or do they turn easily? A correctly set up traditional gland will usually feel a bit stiff whereas O ring sealed glands have less resistance to turning.

3 in 1 oil won't dissolve limescale. It was actually (if legend has it right) designed as an oil which would coat the exposed surfaces of a bicycle chain (and so tends to clog precision mechanisms). WD-40 isn't much good as a lubricant, but it's good for cleaning purposes and it does seem to shift limescale, which was why I suggested it.

 

[bluemermaid]

Well, that gland nut has been tightened fully home. Normally there are a few threads visible - are the others all fully home all as in the picture?. This leads me to think that possibly that valve does not have a traditional gland packing and so you won't be able to service it in the way you intended. It should still unscrew, but if it was tightened fully home in the factory, you'll struggle to undo it now.

Of the non-leaking valves you have, is there a definite resistance to rotation when you turn them or do they turn easily? A correctly set up traditional gland will usually feel a bit stiff whereas O ring sealed glands have less resistance to turning.

3 in 1 oil won't dissolve limescale. It was actually (if legend has it right) designed as an oil which would coat the exposed surfaces of a bicycle chain (and so tends to clog precision mechanisms). WD-40 isn't much good as a lubricant, but it's good for cleaning purposes and it does seem to shift limescale, which was why I suggested it.

Thanks very much for your latest reply Ric. I am learning a lot from you!

3 of the others are tightened fully home as in the previous picture. Just my luck! I don't know about the 4th, as it is a different make to the others (will post pics of the caps) and the plumber stopped that one leaking. It doesn't have a screw for me to take the cap off and have a look underneath like the others and I didn't dare force it off, in case it started leaking again.

The 3 radiators with the nuts tightened fully home turn easily and the different one is very stiff since the plumber fixed the leak (you will see in pic, it was so stiff I needed elastic bands to be able to turn it off after the plumbers left).

So, I am guessing from what you say, that one has a traditional gland and the plumber was able to tighten the nut and fix the leak and the other one he tried to fix must have an O ring sealed gland, which is why it is still leaking? He didn't say that though. Said he had tightened the packing nuts and they were no longer leaking. However, when they had gone and I checked them, only the different one (with white cap) was fixed and the other one (with grey cap) was still leaking. Seems to be leaking worse, so maybe he did do something to it.

Today, I tied a shoe lace around the bottom of the spindle, so I can direct the leak into a plastic container, (from some advice much earlier in this thread about tying some string and using natural capillary action). Seems to be working. Might the Fernox sealer fix the leak temporarily, if I put some around the bottom of the spindle?

I have gone back to my original fear of having the plumbers back in, so I might have another winter with all the leaks! I have seen a bigger drip tray for the hot water cylinder that should fit perfectly and need emptying less often. Hardly leaking at all at the moment but as soon as I heat it up and use the hot water, that's when it starts leaking more again.

At least I had the pilot light fixed on the boiler, which I wouldn't be able to do without in the winter. Oh God, I hope I haven't jinxed it saying that!

 

[exedon2]

That's a pegler Belmont pattern rad valve uses 2 0 rings as seal's
Can still get them seem to remember the older valves needed the green 0 rings later ones red..
Unfortunately first you need to get gland nut lose first!

 

[bluemermaid]

That's a pegler Belmont pattern rad valve uses 2 0 rings as seal's
Can still get them seem to remember the older valves needed the green 0 rings later ones red..
Unfortunately first you need to get gland nut lose first!

Thanks exedon2.

As I said, just my luck!

 

[bluemermaid]

That's a pegler Belmont pattern rad valve uses 2 0 rings as seal's
Can still get them seem to remember the older valves needed the green 0 rings later ones red..
Unfortunately first you need to get gland nut lose first!

While you are here, can I ask you something else about my Vulcan 50 boiler? Do you know if it is likely to have asbestos inside it? I can see some white looking rope inside (you can see it in the pics I posted of inside the boiler), which I have read might be inside Vulcans. If it does contain the rope, or any other kind of asbestos, do any fibres get released when the boiler is serviced?

 

[exedon2]

Almost certainly asbestos rope seals will not give you any problems unless disturbed.
Your boiler and rad valves were made within 10 mls of each other!

 

[bluemermaid]

Almost certainly asbestos rope seals will not give you any problems unless disturbed.
Your boiler and rad valves were made within 10 mls of each other!

Are they unlikely to get disturbed during servicing?

What does '10 mls' mean? 10 years? I like to think they are vintage, just like me haha!

 

[exedon2]

10 miles! Pegler Balby Doncaster Hattersleys Swinton Mexborough 20 min drive between the two.

 

[bluemermaid]

10 miles! Pegler Balby Doncaster Hattersleys Swinton Mexborough 20 min drive between the two.

Oh I see!

Interesting! You are a mine of information...thanks!

 

[Ric2013]

I recognise the white Cosmos valves. Yes, they have a traditional adjustable gland nut whereas, as exedon2 has stated, the Belmont ones don't.

Lucky you to have those Belmont valves. They are good quality and could be repaired. Less lucky, however, is that, as he says, you'd need to get them open and, if they are that tight, perhaps an adjustable spanner may not be enough. Apparently, they are designed to be serviced without having to drain the system (nice touch!). You could try LSX around them - can't see what harm it would do anyway.