is this quote fair? central heating upgrade

[mark456]

A lot of my quotes are very generic as I dobt write everything from scratch every time. If you do quite a few quotes you can soon lose a lot of time writing up everything personally for that customer.

So a lot of mine is supply and fit x boiler and flue
Supply and fit new programmable room thermostat
Supply and fit magnetic filter

And so on.

If they are doing 3/4 quotes a day you have to keep them generic

thats fair enough.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

My opinion if it’s empty get rid of the 10mm hate the stuff

 

[Riley]

My opinion if it’s empty get rid of the 10mm hate the stuff

Completely agree. If budget allows then re pipe

 

[firemant]

I agree with the future proofing and if you say had a young couple looking to have a family then yes stored water all the way.
I cant see that the wasted energy to heat and keep heated a cylinder just so if one day they are rushed for time they could have 2 showers at the same time is worth it.
So I'm a big believer in chatting to the customer explaining the pros and cons of both systems and let them choose what they would prefer or would suit there needs better.

Serious question: On a modern UV cylinder, how long does the water keep hot?

We are 2 adult home ( +1 when son visits for weekend every month or so), 2 bathrooms/3 showers. I shower, she bathes. The water is on for about an hour, ending before we get up and again in the PM ending before we get home. That way, the HW doesn't cycle every time water is drawn. We never run out of HW. If I was bothered, I would try to run it just in the morning OR, more logically, the PM. Personally, changing from a combi to UV was a good move - simply on the basis of faster flow rates to bath.

I would NEVER recommend fitting the wrong boiler to the house. The OP says they are stopping there for ever. Life is rarely that simple.

 

[mark456]

also one of the installers said they do not unstall wickes or n
b and q bathrooms as they always fail. is it a fair point in your opinion?

 

[firemant]

I see your point but we are in our 40s
and this is the forever home so not too fussed about future sale value.

Sorry, Mark, but someone in their 40's has a long way to go (hopefully). There is a lot of water to go under the bridge, and life rarely pans out as you expect (that is from personal experience).

The heating is part of the house, and should be designed as such.

I did not see where you said the heating circuit is 10mm, but if it is, and you are totally refurbing, then definitely repipe.

 

[firemant]

also one of the installers said they do not unstall wickes or n
b and q bathrooms as they always fail. is it a fair point in your opinion?

Yes, they have. But, personally, if I did bathrooms, I would fit anything you wanted. But you would be aware that YOU are buying/supplying the gear, any time spent chasing missing/extra bits would be chargeable at my standard rates, and ANY call backs would be fully charged as normal, unless it was a leak on my soldered joint. I also would not be booking a firm date until the gear has arrived, and YOU have checked it over and confirmed satisfactory condition.

Ultimately, all the above means you would probably decline my quote and T&C's, so, perhaps, after a while and many declined quotes, I would refuse to waste my time and take a similar stance?

 

[Riley]

Get your fitter to supply from a proper merchant not from a shed

 

[Ben-gee]

You say you're gonna live there forever, don't put a cheap sh!te bathroom in then!

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Serious question: On a modern UV cylinder, how long does the water keep hot?

Our 17 year old 170l Megaflo loses 8/9oc of heat over night, measured at 1/3 up from the bottom of the cylinder. That's with introduction of a bit of cold before we go to bed, and in the morning when we get up.

We only heat during periods 4pm > 10pm. None in the morning. Hope that gives you an idea.

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

We'll fit anything but I always advise customers that the fitting costs/labour costs are the same as fitting expensive/upmarket gear unless it involves more work (Such as concealed cisterns, shower valves etc). So it seems daft to me to skimp on the materials if it'll have to be replaced sooner, as you'll only have to incur another fitment cost sooner.

 

[firemant]

Our 17 year old 170l Megaflo loses 8/9oc of heat over night, measured at 1/3 up from the bottom of the cylinder. That's with introduction of a bit of cold before we go to bed, and in the morning when we get up.

We only heat during periods 4pm > 10pm. None in the morning. Hope that gives you an idea.

Thanks. But I did say modern.

seriously though - are very new ones any different?

Do you find the 4 hours serves you with HW all day? Is the main usage post 4pm?

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Thanks. But I did say modern.

seriously though - are very new ones any different?

No, I think a Tempest 200l looses roughly the same amount. A newer Megaflo is no doubly probably slightly better than this but I doubt much more.

 

[Tlee05]

Install a viessmann vitodens 111-w Its a Combi boiler with a hot water storage unit it’s a bit of beast but would easily work for your needs

 

[mark456]

any thoughts on an alpha flowmaster boiler?

 

[Riley]

I find alphas cheap and nasty if you’re looking storage combi then Vaillant Glowworm Viessmann

 

[Millsy 82]

But you will likely be hacked off and embarrassed if you have visitors and you have to say one at a time for the shower even though you have two. That’s what’s daft to me having two showers that you can’t use together. You might as well turn one bathroom into a walk in cupboard or something

If you would get embarrassed by saying dont take 2 showers at the same time then I think you need to live a little.

Or have 1 electric shower 1 mixer. Problem solved as long as you have the flow rate on the cold.

 

[Millsy 82]

Serious question: On a modern UV cylinder, how long does the water keep hot?

I would NEVER recommend fitting the wrong boiler to the house. The OP says they are stopping there for ever. Life is rarely that simple.

If you take no water out of the tank so introduce no cold what so ever then they reckon it's a couple of degrees loss a day. However as soon as you start to introduce cold water that loss becomes a lot greater.

But you would force someone to have what you want them to have even though a combi boiler would be ample for their needs and what they would like just because of the size of the house and because when they sell the house which they have no plans to do it then the next people have a system that may suit their needs.

What would you say if a customer wanted to remove the only bath in a property? No you cant do that the next people to buy your house might need a bath so you shouldn't remove it or would you say no problems have that out in a minute.

 

[firemant]

If you take no water out of the tank so introduce no cold what so ever then they reckon it's a couple of degrees loss a day. However as soon as you start to introduce cold water that loss becomes a lot greater.

Thanks

But you would force someone to have what you want them to have even though .........

I wouldn't try to fore anyone to do anything - I don't think I even implied as much. However, as the invited proffessional, it is expected that you offer advice. Sometimes the punter takes the advice, sometimes not. Ultimately, provided it is safe and legal, I would follow the instructions provided by the punter. But I am a great beleiver in paperwork, and my quotation would make mention somewhere that the quotation offered is for work specified, as opposed to recommended.

As for removing the only bath to fit a shower, unless personal circumstance dictates neccesity, then it is nuts. IMO.

 

[Millsy 82]

I wouldn't try to fore anyone to do anything - I don't think I even implied as much. However, as the invited proffessional, it is expected that you offer advice. Sometimes the punter takes the advice, sometimes not. Ultimately, provided it is safe and legal, I would follow the instructions provided by the punter. But I am a great beleiver in paperwork, and my quotation would make mention somewhere that the quotation offered is for work specified, as opposed to recommended.

As for removing the only bath to fit a shower, unless personal circumstance dictates neccesity, then it is nuts. IMO.

So what you would do is explain the pros and cons of both systems and that a combi boiler would easily cover the hot water usage of 2 people and let them decide?

So pretty much exactly what I said yet you disagreed with me then said you would NEVER recommend the wrong boiler to the HOUSE. How much water does a house use?

 

[Riley]

If you would get embarrassed by saying dont take 2 showers at the same time then I think you need to live a little.

Or have 1 electric shower 1 mixer. Problem solved as long as you have the flow rate on the cold.

Not a case of living a little and we will obviously agree to disagree but I think the whole purpose of two bathrooms is to have the option to use them simultaneously. Otherwise you might as well have one bathroom. I agree the electric shower option is a suggestion but surely you come across people who get an idea in mind and want to stick rigidly to it. These are the ones I won’t involve myself with because they are ultimately the ones that will moan afterwards or bad mouth you for doing the wrong thing even if it’s exactly what they asked for.

 

[firemant]

So what you would do is explain the pros and cons of both systems and that a combi boiler would easily cover the hot water usage of 2 people and let them decide?

So pretty much exactly what I said yet you disagreed with me then said you would NEVER recommend the wrong boiler to the HOUSE. How much water does a house use?

It wasted 10 minutes of my life, bit I eventually found where I disagreed with you:

Not for 2 people though. Surely the system should be designed for the proposed usage.

Which is a bit different to what you are now saying.

And |i still disagree with you, on that specific point

 

[Millsy 82]

It wasted 10 minutes of my life, bit I eventually found where I disagreed with you:



Which is a bit different to what you are now saying.

And |i still disagree with you, on that specific point

So you disagree that a combi wouldnt be suitable for a house with 2 people in it? Well loads of couples have them fitted in houses that they wont cope then even though they cope just fine. Best start ripping them all out and chucking unvented systems in then.

 

[firemant]

So you disagree that a combi wouldnt be suitable for a house with 2 people in it? Well loads of couples have them fitted in houses that they wont cope then even though they cope just fine. Best start ripping them all out and chucking unvented systems in then.

Probably the end of the road for this, once you run out of arguments annd start talking like a child.

 

[Riley]

Look it’s what each individual does. Make the best recommendation for the property. I win more jobs than I lose on this basis.

 

[Millsy 82]

Probably the end of the road for this, once you run out of arguments annd start talking like a child.

My point isnt talking like a child because If two people cant cope with using a combi then the country is screwed because there must be 10's of thousands if not 100's of couples that have combi boilers.

But obviously all customers with 2 bathrooms have exactly the same hot water requirements. So let's just ignore them and do what the hell we want to.

 

[Ben-gee]

As for removing the only bath to fit a shower, unless personal circumstance dictates neccesity, then it is nuts. IMO.

In my experience this is now considered an out of date opinion.

Not really relevant to the discussion, sorry, but just chipping in!

 

[Riley]

In my experience this is now considered an out of date opinion.

Not really relevant to the discussion, sorry, but just chipping in!

I disagree if it’s a family home people with kids want a bath

 

[Dannyk]

If I've missed it sorry, but nobody seems to have mentioned that you can have an immersion heater with a cylinder.
Having had two boiler failures, a programmer and a meter regulator fail the back up has been useful.

 

[Riley]

I think many of us have suggested the non combi route mate

 

[Millsy 82]

I disagree if it’s a family home people with kids want a bath

If your doing a house up with the intention of selling then do what is best for the house if there is no intention of selling the do what the customer wants.

I have loads of customers that have had the baths ripped out and trays put in its personal preference and if the next person to buy the house wants a bath an unvented cylinder etc then that is up to them to sort.

 

[Riley]

If your doing a house up with the intention of selling then do what is best for the house if there is no intention of selling the do what the customer wants.

I have loads of customers that have had the baths ripped out and trays put in its personal preference and if the next person to buy the house wants a bath an unvented cylinder etc then that is up to them to sort.

I agree with the sentiment mate. As you say it’s down to the customer. Completely get that. I’m all about communication with my customers so I’ll be honest with them if they still want to proceed and I am completely anti then I will suggest they get a couple more quotes

 

[Riley]

Problem is you’ll always find someone to fit something no matter how wrong it is. There is a difference with conversation and miss-selling I speak to so many customers where their “plumber” has said such and such will work brilliantly

 

[gmartine]

What about the WB 550, if it really can produce 20L/m g given the right supply and conditions it might be an option.

 

[Millsy 82]

Problem is you’ll always find someone to fit something no matter how wrong it is. There is a difference with conversation and miss-selling I speak to so many customers where their “plumber” has said such and such will work brilliantly

I fully agree with you that you get people that will just sell whatever they want to and that the best way is to talk to your customer and advise them.

However I totally disagree with the point blank oh you have 2 bathrooms a combi wont cope that gets said on here. There is never usually a question about what showers etc they have it's just assumed that they want to have 2 showers running at the same time. Yes an unvented system is the bee knees but if the customer has the flow rate for an unvented cylinder on the cold then they would have enough flow rate to run a mixer and an electric shower.

In my opinion as well if you have a combi it is not a bad idea to have an electric shower as if/when you have a problem with the boiler you still have means of washing.

There is another post and somebody was asking about what combi to buy and mentioned they might have an extension done and without knowing anything else someone put well if you have 2 bathrooms a combi wont cope never asked anything else just said it wont cope which is absolute rubbish and if you are having an extension you could work an electric shower etc in.

I know I have a different view to other people on this and I do understand fully what the others are saying I'm just saying that this point blank no combi for 2 bathrooms is not factually correct without knowing what showers they have and what usage they have of the hot water only then you can advise on what system would be best suited for your customers needs. If they are doing a house up to sell then you go for the houses needs not the customers.