URGENT Is my gas engineer a quack? Should I trust the new boiler installation?

[appletree]

Hi all,

I am in the process of refurbishing a storey semi-detached house in London, UK. This is a complete refurb, including new pipes chased into walls, under the floors, installing a new boiler and new unvented cylinder.

When I started the work, my builder assured me that he has a gas engineer & a plumber and that I will get the certificate in the end. I asked for the gas engineer's registration, which I was given and I looked up his name (let's say "Steve") on the internet and found that he is registered so I thought all was well.

Half way through the project, I realised that the guy who was doing the piping was not Steve but instead a guy called John. Not a problem. No registration required for installing the pipes and radiators. He was going to install the unvented cylinder as well. I asked for his G3 certificate and he said he just passed the exam, so all is good so far (though I realised later that he installed the new gas pipe running from the meter to the boiler. Not sure whether he actually connected it to the boiler though)

The problem started when I saw John taking the boiler out of the packaging and putting it on the wall. I asked whether he was a Gas Safe registered engineer, and he said he was not but the work would be checked by Steve. But at this stage, nothing was connected to the boiler (no power, no pipes), so I didn't raise an issue.

The next day, Steve (the Gas Safe registered engineer) came around but what I saw was that he was just standing in the back and supervising not but actually doing any work. I had to leave the house so I didn't see anything that happened while the actual connection of the boiler was done.

When I came back, Steve gave me "Homeowner Gas Safety Record". I asked whether he would register the boiler installation with the Local Authority, he said it is not required so he usually does not do it and if he were to do it, it would cost me £200.

After he left, I realised he hadn't filled in the "boiler commissioning checklist" either.

So here are my questions.
1. How would a registered gas engineer not know about having to register a new boiler installation with LA?
2. Why did he give me a homeowner gas safety record? I thought this was only for checking an existing installation.
3. Is he required to complete the "boiler commissioning checklist"?
4. John (the plumber) installed the new gas pipe running from the gas meter to the boiler. (not sure who actually connected it to the meter and the boiler though) Is he allow to do this?
5. John admitted he connected hot water pipes to the boiler. As far as I know, this is not allowed and I told him. He said Steve was supervising behind him and he checked it afterwards. Is this ok?

Is my gas safety engineer a quack? If so, what should I do? Get another gas engineer? Or call local building control to come and check the boiler installation out?

Thanks.
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Just noticed a small typo. I meant a "two storey semi-detached" in the first paragraph.

 

[Brambles]

Rather than debate this on an open internet site, you should contact Gas Safe and pass all the details direct to them.

They will properly investigate it and also visit site to verify that the boiler has been installed correctly (or otherwise) to their regulations.

The Gas Safe service is free.

Your G3 unvented installation will also require registering with the Local Authority.

Be aware that Building Control are unlikely to sign off the rest of your redevelopment if the gas boiler and unvented have not been properly signed off and registered with the LA.

 

[centralheatking]

Well said Brambles I saw this one earlier as an urgent post posted but it got lifted
and I can see why. But the urgent sticker should always be replied to
regards Centralheatking

 

[ShaunCorbs]

It’s under a tenner from gas safe so don’t know where the £200 comes from

Needs the benchmark filling in for warranty the only reason why I can think he’s given you a gas cert is he doesn’t want to put his name on the install

Yes see above

Grey area technically it’s just a pipe until it’s connected to the meter but unless the gsr has inspected it how does he know it’s installed correctly etc

He’s not allowed to hang the boiler and install the flue as this needs to be done correctly and right distances away from things

Any pics of the install?

 

[gmartine]

SC beat me to it concerning the Benchmark, needs to be filled...

https://www.hhic.org.uk/uploads/5BE2B7AF1A9B0.pdf

 

[snowhead]

Is this the same Builder, Steve and Jack /John that did the wiring??

 

[leelister6]

If the bloke that ran the pipework, hung the boiler and connected it was being supervised by a GSE and the installation was checked and signed off by a GSE then it should be legal (It's how we build a portfolio for GSR qualifications).
Most manufacturers will register the boiler with Gas Safe and LA along with warranty if you're an accredited installer. This is usually free
GSE should have filled in the Benchmark to prove that the installation is correct.

 

[appletree]

Is this the same Builder, Steve and Jack /John that did the wiring??

Same builder but not the guys who installed electrics.
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If the bloke that ran the pipework, hung the boiler and connected it was being supervised by a GSE and the installation was checked and signed off by a GSE then it should be legal (It's how we build a portfolio for 'Registered Professional Gas Engineer' qualifications).
Most manufacturers will register the boiler with Gas Safe and LA along with warranty if you're an accredited installer. This is usually free
GSE should have filled in the Benchmark to prove that the installation is correct.

I know the gas engineer was there when the boiler was connected to the gas. Not sure when the gas pipe was laid or boiler was hung though. I guess at some stage an apprentice has to learn the trade by doing the work him/herself before being qualified. If the gas engineer was onsite when all the work was done, I'd have less issue (but still I am not satisfied with him giving me a homeowners certificate and telling me that you don't need to register installation with LA, as well as not completing the Benchmark)

 

[centralheatking]

Same builder but not the guys who installed electrics.
[automerge]1571826476[/automerge]

I know the gas engineer was there when the boiler was connected to the gas. Not sure when the gas pipe was laid or boiler was hung though. I guess at some stage an apprentice has to learn the trade by doing the work him/herself before being qualified. If the gas engineer was onsite when all the work was done, I'd have less issue (but still I am not satisfied with him giving me a homeowners certificate and telling me that you don't need to register installation with LA, as well as not completing the Benchmark)

The other issues which you mention are salient in my opinion often with PF our esteemed members reply with the knowledge they are certain of and esp. with gas and regs stick to
what they know. Wait awhile regarding LA & benchmarking ...most of these fellas are out doing it right now....onwards and upwards. centralheatking

 

[Ric2013]

Hi all,

I am in the process of refurbishing a storey semi-detached house in London, UK. This is a complete refurb, including new pipes chased into walls, under the floors, installing a new boiler and new unvented cylinder.

When I started the work, my builder assured me that he has a gas engineer & a plumber and that I will get the certificate in the end. I asked for the gas engineer's registration, which I was given and I looked up his name (let's say "Steve") on the internet and found that he is registered so I thought all was well.

Half way through the project, I realised that the guy who was doing the piping was not Steve but instead a guy called John. Not a problem. No registration required for installing the pipes and radiators. He was going to install the unvented cylinder as well. I asked for his G3 certificate and he said he just passed the exam, so all is good so far (though I realised later that he installed the new gas pipe running from the meter to the boiler. Not sure whether he actually connected it to the boiler though)

The problem started when I saw John taking the boiler out of the packaging and putting it on the wall. I asked whether he was a Gas Safe registered engineer, and he said he was not but the work would be checked by Steve. But at this stage, nothing was connected to the boiler (no power, no pipes), so I didn't raise an issue.

The next day, Steve (the Gas Safe registered engineer) came around but what I saw was that he was just standing in the back and supervising not but actually doing any work. I had to leave the house so I didn't see anything that happened while the actual connection of the boiler was done.

When I came back, Steve gave me "Homeowner Gas Safety Record". I asked whether he would register the boiler installation with the Local Authority, he said it is not required so he usually does not do it and if he were to do it, it would cost me £200.

After he left, I realised he hadn't filled in the "boiler commissioning checklist" either.

So here are my questions.
1. How would a registered gas engineer not know about having to register a new boiler installation with LA?
2. Why did he give me a homeowner gas safety record? I thought this was only for checking an existing installation.
3. Is he required to complete the "boiler commissioning checklist"?
4. John (the plumber) installed the new gas pipe running from the gas meter to the boiler. (not sure who actually connected it to the meter and the boiler though) Is he allow to do this?
5. John admitted he connected hot water pipes to the boiler. As far as I know, this is not allowed and I told him. He said Steve was supervising behind him and he checked it afterwards. Is this ok?

Is my gas safety engineer a quack? If so, what should I do? Get another gas engineer? Or call local building control to come and check the boiler installation out?

Thanks.
[automerge]1571750583[/automerge]
Just noticed a small typo. I meant a "two storey semi-detached" in the first paragraph.

I'm going to second Brambles on this. As it's a bit pointless my giving an 'as far as I'm aware answer'.

 

[Brambles]

Appletree,

There are two points here:

1. Have both ( Gas Boiler and Unvented Cylinder) installations been installed safely and correctly?

2. Are the installations properly documented with the Local Authority ( that is a legal requirement) and with the Manufacturer(s) to ensure that any extended warranties are in place.

Whilst it is a requirement that the installer registers the installation with the Local Authority, there is also a legal obligation upon the owner to advise the Local Authority, if you believe that it has not been properly registered. The fine for the installer is up to £5k but for the owner it is unlimited. Having said that I have never seen an owner prosecuted.

With respect to both Gas and Unvented qualifications, the individual must be a member of a body that certifies their competence to issue a certificate / registration. It is not sufficient just to have an Unvented quailfication or in the case of gas an ACS qualification to work on a commercial basis.

Most (like all) gas engineers are Registered with Gas Safe as the body certifying their competence, this body can also be used to certify unvented installations too ( providing that the individual is qualified).

With respect to Gas Safe registration, their are two types:

A. Individuals with their own registration, where they can undertake work, then register the installation through Gas Safe, who advise the Local Authority.

B. Companies with their Gas Safe registration who register the work undertaken by their employees ( who are Gas Safe registered in the Companies name).

As an example: If I worked for British Gas and was registered through them, if I fitted a boiler for you one weekend as a “private job”, I would not be able to register it with Gas Safe. All my work could only be registered through British Gas.

To do so, I would have to register with Gas Safe in my own name ( costs around £500). A lot of engineers do indeed have two registrations (and carry their own insurance) to allow for such circumstances. That is quite legitimate.

Apologies for the soliloquy, but the clue to the above is the installer saying that he has just qualified (G3) in unvented. The G3 qualification is a one day course, after that to use it effectively you need to be a member of a body that certifies your competence (a competent persons scheme). Most qualified installers would not say “I am qualified”, they would say that my work is certified through Gas Safe or for example APHC - there are a number of schemes around.

With respect to G3, for some people it is harder to join a competent persons scheme than it is to gain the qualification. G3 is a qualification over and above a trade qualification. Anyone securing a G3 qualification without a recognised trade qualification would have difficulty joining a competent persons scheme.

I will close by referring you back to my first post - call Gas Safe and they will get to the bottom as to why exactly your installation has not been notified for registration. It will save you a lot of heartache.

Whatever else you do, don’t leave it unresolved - it is difficult and expensive to get these installations approved retrospectively.

The above is not intended to be a criticism in anyway of the processes in place in the England and Wales at the moment, but I have come across people with a G3 certificate ( legitimately sourced) with no other recognised heating or plumbing qualification.

 

[appletree]

Hi,

I have attached the photos of the card the guy who installed unvented cylinder showed me, saying he's passed the G3 exam and he is qualified to install it. I didn't realise passing that is not enough. Are you saying he also needs to be part of Competent Persons Scheme to certify the installation and notify the local authority?

Apologies for the soliloquy, but the clue to the above is the installer saying that he has just qualified (G3) in unvented. The G3 qualification is a one day course, after that to use it effectively you need to be a member of a body that certifies your competence (a competent persons scheme). Most qualified installers would not say “I am qualified”, they would say that my work is certified through Gas Safe or for example APHC - there are a number of schemes around.

With respect to G3, for some people it is harder to join a competent persons scheme than it is to gain the qualification. G3 is a qualification over and above a trade qualification. Anyone securing a G3 qualification without a recognised trade qualification would have difficulty joining a competent persons scheme.

I will close by referring you back to my first post - call Gas Safe and they will get to the bottom as to why exactly your installation has not been notified for registration. It will save you a lot of heartache.

Whatever else you do, don’t leave it unresolved - it is difficult and expensive to get these installations approved retrospectively.

The above is not intended to be a criticism in anyway of the processes in place in the England and Wales at the moment, but I have come across people with a G3 certificate ( legitimately sourced) with no other recognised heating or plumbing qualification.

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Thank you all for your opinions. In the end, I decided to follow the advice to call Gas Safe to get the installation checked out. I've notified my builder that I would do so. I will call Gas Safe tomorrow.

At least that way, I would know for sure one way or another whether the installation is legit and safe or not.

I will keep you guys posted on the outcome.

 

[Brambles]

Appletree,

You interpretation is correct. The card you have photographed is the qualification. To self certify, the holder also needs to be a member of one of the competent persons schemes scheduled on the Government website. Google “competent persons gov.uk” - you will note from the list that MP’s don’t appear to be included!!

If you contact your Local Authority, Building Control Officer and explain that the G3 installation has been installed by a qualified operative (show them the card) they will certify it for you directly. The charge is normally around £150. Certification / registration through a competent persons scheme is around £5 to £10.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. It is not as straightforward to resolve the Registration of a gas appliance. In my experience Building Control are very wary of any installation that is not registered through the Capita administered Gas Safe Scheme.

 

[appletree]

Hi Brambles,

Thank you for your reply. I have one more question. Is Competent Persons Scheme same for the gas engineers as well? That is, are there gas engineers who are not part of CPS therefore they can install but they cannot self certify? If so, that may explain why my gas engineer mentioned it would cost me £200 to register the new installation with LA.

Thanks.

If you contact your Local Authority, Building Control Officer and explain that the G3 installation has been installed by a qualified operative (show them the card) they will certify it for you directly. The charge is normally around £150. Certification / registration through a competent persons scheme is around £5 to £10.

 

[Brambles]

A wooly answer I am afraid.

The only Competent Persons scheme in England and Wales is Gas Safe that comes under the direction of the HSE.

With one exception an individual must be Gas Safe Registered to instal or work on a domestic gas installation. The exception is that if the individual has the ACS qualification, but is not Gas Safe Registered he / she can work on their own appliance - but there are steps to close this loop hole.

Gas Safe is a legal requirement and offences / breaches are treated as criminal not civil.

A new Gas installation must be registered with the Local Authority, it is a civil offence not to register the installation.

My guess would be that your builder has a friend who is Gas Safe registered through his employer. Consequently only his employer can register the installation or they persuade an independently registered Gas Safe engineer to do it instead. Hence the £200.

In my experience, Registered Gas Safe Engineers are very reluctant to help out in such situations - the consequences for them are quite severe. If anything goes wrong, as a minimum Gas Safe put you back on probation, but often remove your registration until you have retrained.

Hope this answers your question