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Hi all - apologies in advance for the essay.

Posted a week or two ago about a botched shower job and had some really helpful replies (tray installed too far back so enclosure is too big for tray and overhangs it; plasterboard also sitting on top of tray rather than tray being butted to boards which go down the edge of the tray).

I'll ask my question right now in case you don't want to read my monologue below. I understand since 2018 building regs say plasterboard in a shower area has to be tanked before tiling. I'm pretty sure (though not certain) that this wasn't done in my case. Do you know if the building regs make this mandatory (or mean that the 'reasonable care and skill' requirement of the Consumer Rights Act hasn't been met if not done)? Because the fitter is pushing back on what needs to be done to rectify the situation, I thought this may the easiest way to justify starting from scratch (I haven't raised the tanking point before as I've only just looked into it). There is currently some missing drywall exposing the plasterboard with doesn't look/feel tanked (photo included) and I can see where it goes behind the tiles and it doesn't look tanked there either (but the tile adhesive makes it difficult to see).

I outlined all the issues to my fitter (again, except the tanking) and he said he'd 'work some things out and get back to me'. Interesting that he didn't even ask to come over and inspect the issues I'd raised, or even see photos (most of the work was done by two employees who he later told me he'd sack as they kept botching jobs - but insisted mine had been done right...)

Anyway I chased him twice more last week and he kept saying he was still working things out, so finally yesterday I got tougher with him and he said he would refund me £500 for someone else to sort it (I assume because he hasn't got the staff now) which he claimed would be more than enough to rectify it. I asked him to clarify what he saw rectification involving as I thought it would need doing from scratch and £500 wouldn't be enough. He then suddenly changed tactic and said he would come and 'move the tray'. I said I didn't think it was as simple as that as tiles needing removing etc (I assume he envisaged some method of moving the tray forward without disturbing tiles and keeping the plasterboard resting on top - he isn't a tiler and outsourced that part of the job).

I suggested that I get some quotes to rectify the issue and we take it from there and he suddenly changed personality (or showed his true colours) and told me he wouldn't be held responsible for that (even though his £500 offer for someone else to sort it was apparently 'more than enough' - so if he's right why is getting quotes a problem?). He also refused to respond to my points that I felt more invasive action was required and he said 'you're not a tiler or bathroom fitter so it's irrelevant what you think.' I thought as the customer what I think does matter but I guess not...

Anyway long story short I kept pressing him on HOW he intended to fix the issues and what his response was to the specific problems I'd listed, but he wouldn't it got heated (I probably inflamed the situation by telling him I didn't trust him any more to fix it competently, but when he said my concerns were irrelevant I was agitated). The possibility of the county court came up (but I did say I didn't want to go down that road) and he said he wouldn't communicate with me any more and it would have be via solicitors. So obviously this has reached an awkward impasse.

I thought my next move should be to get some other tradesmen to confirm what's gone wrong and quote me to rectify it, and then write to him asking for that sum or giving him one more chance to fix it (I don't want to offer the latter option as it would be an extremely awkward encounter but I suppose I'll have to).

Grateful for any advice. I know I've probably been too trusting/naive throughout this process so be gentle :)
 

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Hi

All I can say is that I would expect a tradesman to deliver a job that is fit for purpose. I am no tiler or professional shower fitter but would not use plasterboard or mdf for a shower area. The fact this guy has would have made me question him and probably just throw him of the job. When I did my shower(not the tiling) I did a bit of research and lined up a tiler before hand who gave me advice. What you find is the shower area is boarded in ply and tanked or much better it is cement boarded, ie no more ply or hardybacker and that can be tanked for an even better job. Then the shower tray is fitted up against this boarding with decent silicon. On the subject of trays many people recomend making a decent platform out of timber rather than use the plastic stick on legs because any movement in the tray during use will break the silicon seal. This I did for my installation using 4by 2s I had offcuts from a stud wall. The tiles are then put up and you leave space at the bottom to run a silicon bead after tiling. I dare say a proffessional shower fitter tiler may have other thoughts.
 
Hi

All I can say is that I would expect a tradesman to deliver a job that is fit for purpose. I am no tiler or professional shower fitter but would not use plasterboard or mdf for a shower area. The fact this guy has would have made me question him and probably just throw him of the job. When I did my shower(not the tiling) I did a bit of research and lined up a tiler before hand who gave me advice. What you find is the shower area is boarded in ply and tanked or much better it is cement boarded, ie no more ply or hardybacker and that can be tanked for an even better job. Then the shower tray is fitted up against this boarding with decent silicon. On the subject of trays many people recomend making a decent platform out of timber rather than use the plastic stick on legs because any movement in the tray during use will break the silicon seal. This I did for my installation using 4by 2s I had offcuts from a stud wall. The tiles are then put up and you leave space at the bottom to run a silicon bead after tiling. I dare say a proffessional shower fitter tiler may have other thoughts.

Thanks for your thoughts. I guess at this stage it's a question of what's ideal vs what's acceptable in terms of going after him.

Also slight correction to my OP... I appreciate tanking isn't in building regs as I said, just recommended in British standards.
 
Need a picture further out.

Hi Simon. My original post here:

 
Oh dear, that's a real shower of brown stuff.

Leg missing, no trim to tiles, sealed inside, over hanging tray. Looks like it was fitted by Stevie Wonder.

RIP it out and start again.

Get recommendations from friends, colleagues, neighbours for a good plumber and get a price to sort it.

If the work you can see is that gash then just think how bad the stuff you cant see.
[automerge]1599683519[/automerge]
Just read response above now as well. Do not use ply on walls.
 
Oh dear, that's a real shower of brown stuff.

Leg missing, no trim to tiles, sealed inside, over hanging tray. Looks like it was fitted by Stevie Wonder.

RIP it out and start again.

Get recommendations from friends, colleagues, neighbours for a good plumber and get a price to sort it.

If the work you can see is that gash then just think how bad the stuff you cant see.
[automerge]1599683519[/automerge]
Just read response above now as well. Do not use ply on walls.

Yes, I think you've summed it up pretty perfectly there.

Here's hoping I can get some money out of the cowboy fitters.
 
I thought my next move should be to get some other tradesmen to confirm what's gone wrong and quote me to rectify it, and then write to him asking for that sum or giving him one more chance to fix it (I don't want to offer the latter option as it would be an extremely awkward encounter but I suppose I'll have to).
My advice is NEVER 'threaten court action' as a method of trying to coerce a second-rate trader to fixing a problem. Any good trader will jump at the chance to fix problems because they know that by doing this they can turn an upset customer into a happy one. If the trader is unwilling or unable to fix the problem then get someone else to put it right and at that point start down the tedious but straightforward path of recovering the costs from the original guy.

AIUI, you are not obliged to give the original company a chance to fix their own mistakes, it's just often the quickest/easiest route for all concerned and makes showing you acted reasonably easier. Any costs you want to recover from the original trader must be 'reasonable' but costs can be surprisingly high before they become unreasonable in the legal sense.

Keep in mind that traders who cut corners and don't care about their reputation have a habbit of going out of business so don't assume you'll ever get any money out of them. Just treat it as a nice surprise if you do.

Oh, and never get your legal advice from the internet. Some home insurance policies include cover, if not use a solicitor or Citizens Advice. If you use CA and can afford it, make a donation to them so they can help someone who can't.
 
My advice is NEVER 'threaten court action' as a method of trying to coerce a second-rate trader to fixing a problem. Any good trader will jump at the chance to fix problems because they know that by doing this they can turn an upset customer into a happy one. If the trader is unwilling or unable to fix the problem then get someone else to put it right and at that point start down the tedious but straightforward path of recovering the costs from the original guy.

AIUI, you are not obliged to give the original company a chance to fix their own mistakes, it's just often the quickest/easiest route for all concerned and makes showing you acted reasonably easier. Any costs you want to recover from the original trader must be 'reasonable' but costs can be surprisingly high before they become unreasonable in the legal sense.

Keep in mind that traders who cut corners and don't care about their reputation have a habbit of going out of business so don't assume you'll ever get any money out of them. Just treat it as a nice surprise if you do.

Oh, and never get your legal advice from the internet. Some home insurance policies include cover, if not use a solicitor or Citizens Advice. If you use CA and can afford it, make a donation to them so they can help someone who can't.

Yeah fair points. Anyway, in my mind I have given the trader the chance to rectify the issues (and I have the whatsapp messages), but he refused to explain what his intended 'fix' was or respond to the issues I'd laid out because what I think is 'irrelevant'. Pretty sure him saying 'I'll come and fix it but refuse to tell you how' isn't reasonable.

Also he's the one who's said he won't correspond any more so I guess going to someone else is my only option.

He's a sole trader so at least he can't just liquidate, although I know that still doesn't guarantee I'll get anything back (although the fact that he offered me £500 before oddly rescinding the offer might imply he'll cough up something). I may just have to chalk this up to experience as I did do a lot of things on trust (read: naively).
 
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I have read the post and looked at the pictures and from my point of view this install is completely unacceptable, there is no way to fix this other than complete strip out and start again, don't be fobbed off this install will fail and there's no way of correcting it , now the tricky part how to get it sorted personally I would gather as much information pictures ect keep a diary and records of all contact with your contractor and his poor efforts and prepare a case for the small claims court don't keep messing around one final letter or email a complete refund or a day in court .
Find a new contractor and make sure this time they are competent to deliver a good job. Regards Kop
 
I have read the post and looked at the pictures and from my point of view this install is completely unacceptable, there is no way to fix this other than complete strip out and start again, don't be fobbed off this install will fail and there's no way of correcting it , now the tricky part how to get it sorted personally I would gather as much information pictures ect keep a diary and records of all contact with your contractor and his poor efforts and prepare a case for the small claims court don't keep messing around one final letter or email a complete refund or a day in court .
Find a new contractor and make sure this time they are competent to deliver a good job. Regards Kop

Thanks for your thoughts - I totally agree.

I've got 3 other tradesmen (all with good credentials) to come and quote in the next few days.
 
They will all want to rip it out and start again.

Any that don’t, steer a wide course away from them.

Yeah fair enough, if I end up suing the other guy for a refund though I'm not sure how easy it'll be to convince the court that that's the only option though. I have posted pics in other forums and been told 'plasterboard sitting on top of the tray isn't a big issue' etc. I value the opinions here more but it's a case of convincing the court of my POV I guess. Quotes from other fitters will help as evidence I hope.
 
Just show em the pictures it won't take much convincing it's all wrong so need to come out

Someone in another forum said 'the situation can be rectified by cutting out the bottom run of tiles, take the tray out, replace the board, (tank?), refit the tray and seal, refit the tiles and seal again.'

But surely the problem there is that it's not about replacing the board, it's that currently no board exists behind the tray at all and it's only on top...
 
As KOP says, that is the ‘can you bodge this cheaply please’ solution.
Plasterboard itself is not a problem, as long as it’s tanked it is actually a pretty good substrate. Although the cement faced XP boards are currently thought to be the best solution.
In reference to an earlier answer, definitely not ply for tiling on - even if tanked - it is just not dimensionally stable in these conditions.
 
Just an update - just had my first of 3 quotes. He said exactly what you've all said of course - that the only proper course of action is a complete restart; anything else would be a bodge solution.

He made a lot of recommendations including that the tray is on a frame rather than on legs, or something like that.

Seemed a legit guy and has some good credentials (verified on trustatrader etc)

But will get the other two quotes too.
 
Frame vs legs is a tight call.

I prefer legs, having removed lots of trays that have failed due to rotten wooden frames collapsing.
I do use frames occasionally however, when I think it’s the best solution for whatever reason.
Obviously there shouldn’t be any water getting under the tray so the wooden frame should be fine, but in the real world I’ve seen it happen lots of times ; leaking washing machine in next room, pinhole in central heating pipe ( they just kept topping up system!?), hole in flexible pan connector under units etc etc.

These are all unlikely events and in a vigilant household would be spotted early and so not cause much trouble.

Don’t know why I’m waffling on, sorry!

You’ll be fine with a frame or proprietary leg set - as long as everything is well supported and in full contact with the floor , with no deflection - happy days 🙂
 
Hi there

If you board over the frame and slap a good coat of paint on it this really helps. I find the problem thesedays is that people often do not look at anything other than the cost. You explain that the price includes cement boards and correct fixing materials and they are getting a solid frame so the job will last and be trouble free but they reply so and so can almost cut your price by a third. This is the problem, to many so and so's doing substandard work at prices you cannot match.
 
If it was me then it's a rip out and start again. Patching 'may' resolve the issue, but I wouldn't stake my good reputation on a 'may'. I've done jobs where the tiling is by others and I've told the customer that if anybody asks I only did the plumbing. That's why I like to do the lot.
 
Thanks everyone. I'm just putting the finishing touches on a letter asking the fitter for a full refund within 14 days or I'll make a claim in the county court.

I've listed out the issues including some I've discovered since he refused to communicate with me any further and haven't pointed out in this thread yet.

The botch countdown is...

1. Enclosure overhanging tray despite already being at its minimum adjustment, due to tray being fitted too far back, behind the plasterboard. Thus the enclosure leaks from both corners despite the fitter coming back twice to add more silicone on the inside and outside (and I know you should only seal an enclosure on the outside)
2. Plasterboard resting on top of the tray, rather than going behind it and down to the bottom of the edge (and the tray is not the type with the lip), so there is no primary seal against leaks (i.e. sealant between the board and tray)
3. Plasterboard wasn't tanked in accordance with the latest BSI recommendations
4. One of the legs is mounted on a piece of plasterboard (!), I assume as a corner cutting measure - you guys will know better than I do but I can't imagine that being safe...?
5. Shower tray is fitted too low for the waste pipe, so a leak/blockage risk
6. Shower tray has several scratches and chips
7. No tile trim and the adhesive behind the tiles can be seen which is obviously unslightly
8. Tiles are uneven in parts and not central to the enclosure
9. There are holes in the silicone between the tiles and tray - possibly suggesting that the tray is unstable and pulling the silicone? I don't know if that could be related to point 4. In any event if this happens and water gets through, as above the plasterboard isn't tanked and there's no primary seal between the tray and boards either...

Happy to hear any comments if you think any of that isn't worth mentioning - but it's a lot of errors! And as SimonG said the other day, that's only stuff I can see...

A lot more stuff makes sense now too, like him texting me partway through the job asking me to leave him a review but adding that I could wait until he finished if I wanted - I bet he knew at that point it had all gone wrong. Luckily I said I'd leave one after the works were done (and I still haven't done so) but I definitely should have seen a red flag there. I can be so naive...
 
Put it down to experience mate you have been treated badly but this cannot be resolved by the current contractor, the list above is more than enough to pursue a full refund + damages, just beware of getting stung again and keep a close eye on the new installer I would go as far as a full breakdown of what they intend to do what materials will be used in the shower area . But of luck kop
 
Luckily I said I'd leave one after the works were done (and I still haven't done so) but I definitely should have seen a red flag there. I can be so naive...
Under no circumstance leave him a review positive or negative if you intend to take him to Court. Judges don't like cases that have already been argued in public. You're at risk of taking this all too personally. Get the work redone by someone competent. Claim the costs from the original contractor, which may be more than he actually charged you but he can still be liable in some circumstances. Enjoy a nice shower in your new bathroom and move on.
 
Under no circumstance leave him a review positive or negative if you intend to take him to Court. Judges don't like cases that have already been argued in public. You're at risk of taking this all too personally. Get the work redone by someone competent. Claim the costs from the original contractor, which may be more than he actually charged you but he can still be liable in some circumstances. Enjoy a nice shower in your new bathroom and move on.

Oh no I'm not intending to leave a review before going to court (if it came to that), until this is all finalised any review wouldn't tell the full story anyway.
 
Can you not contact the original installers insurance company.
It may be an easier task than going to court.

They may just pay you a sum that they deem will be sufficient to cover the costs of the defective works.

No matter which way you go, you will never recover the full costs, it may be worth trying to get as much as you can and put the losses down to experience
 
Can you not contact the original installers insurance company.
It may be an easier task than going to court.

They may just pay you a sum that they deem will be sufficient to cover the costs of the defective works.

No matter which way you go, you will never recover the full costs, it may be worth trying to get as much as you can and put the losses down to experience

Well, I've sent him a letter before claim today asking for a refund within 14 days. Hopefully I won't have to make a claim but we'll see. I did also say I was willing to consider mediation/ADR

He's a sole trader so is personally liable so we'll see what he comes back with.
 
Well, I've sent him a letter before claim today asking for a refund within 14 days. Hopefully I won't have to make a claim but we'll see. I did also say I was willing to consider mediation/ADR

He's a sole trader so is personally liable so we'll see what he comes back with.

But if he has no assets of value then you are limited with how much you will be able to recoup.
 
I know. Can only see what happens next.
👍

Just avoid throwing good money after bad. The small claims is fairly straightforward to navigate without having to fork out for legal help, but if after a court judgement he still refuses to pay up I'd cut my losses if I was in your shoes rather than spending money on debt collectors/bailiffs.
 
Persistence is the key here don't get fed up and think your getting know where and give in , you've sent the letter now plan your next move always keep copies of everything and a diary of contact between yourself and the contractor or a third party once court proceedings kick in , its not nice being taken for a fool and any reputable plumbing contractor would not treat you this way. Kop
 
Hi all, just a positive update on this. Following my pre-action letter requesting a full refund, the fitter responded with a pretty laughable offer, then a higher one before I finally got him to agree to an even higher one which is almost all of my money back. I do get to keep the enclosure which is probably still usable and it avoids the court fees too. So I'm happy.

Thanks so much for all of your advice - I've made sure the next trader has better credentials and I'll be keeping a close eye on the works!
 
Hi all, just a positive update on this. Following my pre-action letter requesting a full refund, the fitter responded with a pretty laughable offer, then a higher one before I finally got him to agree to an even higher one which is almost all of my money back. I do get to keep the enclosure which is probably still usable and it avoids the court fees too. So I'm happy.

Thanks so much for all of your advice - I've made sure the next trader has better credentials and I'll be keeping a close eye on the works!
Glad you got a result . Regards Kop
 

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