Ideal boiler loosing pressure (AT WITS END)

[Chequersbelvoir]

Ideal boiler loosing pressure (AT WITS END)
Hi all looking to converse about my boiler problem with people with knowledge. I’d be grateful for advice.
System

• Ideal Vogue S32 System Boiler
• Everflow Stainless unvented hot water cylinder (EN 300 P5)(300 liters)
• Drayton Mitime T740R timer/controller With 3x two port Auto valves giving 3 zones.
• Zone 1 Hot water, Zone 2 C/H upstairs, Zone 3 C/H downstairs

Also I can isolate the C/H system into 3 main areas with full bore isolation valves
Area 1 downstairs front of house (6 Rads)(traditional suspended wooden floor)
Area 2 downstairs back of house (6 Rads)(underground mainly in concrete)
Area 3 upstairs (12 rads)(all under floorboards)

• The system is quite large bur running within the manufactures capacity guide lines

At the beginning of December the boiler slowly started loosing pressure, but also acting erratic - pressure going high, over 3 Bar, when boiler running and with demand, eventually settling down to around 2 Bar. When there is no demand pressure rest about 1 Bar. But over a few days the pressure drops to zero. (usually overnight with no demand and boiler goes cold)

• Checked pressure release valve, no sign of discharge.
• Checked expansion vessel, a little low, no water, so repressured to .75 Bar, seams OK
• Called Ideal (10 years part & labor warranty) suspecting needing new heat exchange unit. (I hope)

5th January Boiler engineer arrives, changes pressure release valve and a sensor.
Puts pressure to 2 Bar and with Boiler off (didn’t think of that) monitors the pressure and over the next hour the pressure drops to around 1.75 Bar. He says I have a leak somewhere in the system.****

• So I embark on an investigation of an elimination program to find the leak.
• Isolate downstairs front of house. (if there is a leak I hope and pray its in this area).

After 2 days the pressure didn’t drop, I take up a floor board were I suspect the leak is and I find nothing.
Continue to monitor, and pressure drops slowly over the next few days.

• I repressurize the system, but this time I check that the system is completely full, bleeding all rads Etc. and still with just the front of house isolated I wait and hope.

Over the next 4 or 5 days the system looses pressure. I conclude that it’s not the area downstairs - front of house

• 13th January – I isolate upstairs (both downstairs areas on + Hot water) & repressurize to 1Bar

Pressure fluctuates up & down like a yoyo to start with, then settles when demand is on to around 1.75 Bar. (pressure is dropping to 1 Bar when no demand and boiler cooling).

• Next morning no pressure again, BUT when I try to repressurize I can physically see the pressure dropping fast. The pressure eventually stabilizes. ( maybe because most of the C/H system is upstairs (over 2 floors) and when in circuit it was giving some kind of pressure stability?)

I monitor this but the pressure drops again, it’s acting erratically high when there is demand but dropping to about 1Bar with no demand, then loosing pressure eventually over night when the boiler goes off. (maybe expansion & contraction of pipes, making a seal when hot and opening up when it cools?)

• 14th January PM. I isolate upstairs & downstairs back of house, the pressure indicates 1.5 Bar, which is ok for boiler going off for the night. In the morning again no pressure ( were is the water going???)
• 15th January AM. I isolate all areas, turn off C/H but keep hot water on, again I can’t manage to stabilize the pressure, it is going down at the same speed as I am pressurizing the system. (maybe there is a fracture inside the hot water cylinder coils??).
• I disconnected Condensate and diverted into a bucket to measure. It produces about 1 ltr per day – is this normal or excessive?
• To double check I again isolated the back of house and upstairs for the whole day – the pressure still drops in the evening when there is no demand.
• Sorry this is a lot of information – I hope someone out there will know what to do – I’d be most grateful for your expert advice and ideas.

Thanks
Nick

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Need to isolate and gauge each section I suspect it’s the one in the concrete

 

[Chequersbelvoir]

Need to isolate and gauge each section I suspect it’s the one in the concrete

Yes I thought it be the one on the concrete if anything. I’ve isolated each section inAs described in note that none of the sections seems to be the cause of the leak. I think it may be in the hot water tank coils. But don’t really know how to test this

 

[ShaunCorbs]

So they don’t drop even when you open them back up ?

 

[snowhead]

I think it may be in the hot water tank coils.

It's unlikely to be the coil in an unvented cylinder.
The pressure in the cylinder is higher than the pressure in the heating system, unless you've got extremely low mains water pressure.

 

[Scott_D]

Have you got an additional heating expansion vessel?
Is it copper pipe in concrete?

 

[Chequersbelvoir]

So they don’t drop even when you open them back up ?

I’ve isolated each section in turn and also tried combinations on two areas together and the system still looses pressure. I therefore assume that the pressure is been lost through the unvented hot water cylinder, but don’t know how to check it. It also is a possibility that the boiler is losing pressure through heat exchanger. It’s only losing pressure when the boiler is cooling down?

 

[Chequersbelvoir]

So they don’t drop even when you open them back up ?

I think it may be in the hot water tank coils.

It's unlikely to be the coil in an unvented cylinder.
The pressure in the cylinder is higher than the pressure in the heating system, unless you've got extremely low mains water pressure.

we have a good water pressure

Have you got an additional heating expansion vessel?
Is it copper pipe in concrete?

Yes there is a additional heating expansion vessel and pressure init is goood.
Unfortunately the pipes in the concrete are plastic

 

[Chequersbelvoir]

I’ve also been checking how much condensate is produce, considering the boiler shuts down over night and looses all it’s pressure. The boiler is producing around 1.5 litres a day. Is this excessive? I also noticed that about Half a litre of the condensate is produced when I first start the boiler up in the morning.

 

[Scott_D]

I’ve also been checking how much condensate is produce, considering the boiler shuts down over night and looses all it’s pressure. The boiler is producing around 1.5 litres a day. Is this excessive? I also noticed that about Half a litre of the condensate is produced when I first start the boiler up in the morning.

Sounds pretty normal

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Put the condense in a bucket over night and make sure the boiler is off eg not set to come on until you’ve inspected the bucket

 

[Ben-gee]

I’d say 1.5l of condensate a day is low on a large system so maybe get return temperature down ( nothing to do with this problem though).

What the guys are suggesting is isolate a section when all system is fully pressurised. Leave it like that for a few days - if the system loses pressure top it up and stabilise. Then reconnect the isolated section back to the system as a whole- if the pressure now drops you know that the section which was isolated for a few days definitely has leak.
Repeat this for each section- it is entirely possible that you have multiple leaks, this would not be unusual as lots of bits are the same age and used in same conditions.

This method is better than your one of observing the drop in the system as a whole ( minus one section) and inferring that that section is ok because the system dropped without it. I hope you follow me!

 

[Chequersbelvoir]

I’d say 1.5l of condensate a day is low on a large system so maybe get return temperature down ( nothing to do with this problem though).

What the guys are suggesting is isolate a section when all system is fully pressurised. Leave it like that for a few days - if the system loses pressure top it up and stabilise. Then reconnect the isolated section back to the system as a whole- if the pressure now drops you know that the section which was isolated for a few days definitely has leak.
Repeat this for each section- it is entirely possible that you have multiple leaks, this would not be unusual as lots of bits are the same age and used in same conditions.

This method is better than your one of observing the drop in the system as a whole ( minus one section) and inferring that that section is ok because the system dropped without it. I hope you follow me!

Thanks for your reply. I have isolated each section intern and also 2 together and still drop in pleasure it will try different combinations of the 3 sections. maybe there is a leak in our bloody three?

 

[Timmy D]

Have you isolated the boiler from the heating circuit?

 

[Chequersbelvoir]

Have you isolated the boiler from the heating circuit?

I think so but it looks a little bit dodgy has the valves are a little bit stiff. I need to take off the plastic toggles and try using an adjustable. I think the plastic toggles were just swinging at the last minute. Will try again and make sure

 

[Timmy D]

I think so but it looks a little bit dodgy has the valves are a little bit stiff. I need to take off the plastic toggles and try using an adjustable. I think the plastic toggles were just swinging at the last minute. Will try again and make sure

That’s the first thing I check. Top pressure to 2.5 bar.

Isolate boiler, leave over night, check pressure again. If boiler shows lower pressure, there is a leak boiler side (doesn’t mean there isn’t another leak heating side but let’s rule out the boiler).

Then open isolation valves and watch the boiler pressure. It will indicate if there is a system leak.

I know you’ve proven zones but this is how I would start and then be systematical about testing/proving other zones individually. I’d cut new isolation valves into zone flow/ returns and potentially pressure gauge attachment points where needed so I know nothing’s passing and I can be certain of the results.

 

[Chequersbelvoir]

That’s the first thing I check. Top pressure to 2.5 bar.

Isolate boiler, leave over night, check pressure again. If boiler shows lower pressure, there is a leak boiler side (doesn’t mean there isn’t another leak heating side but let’s rule out the boiler).

Then open isolation valves and watch the boiler pressure. It will indicate if there is a system leak.

I know you’ve proven zones but this is how I would start and then be systematical about testing/proving other zones individually. I’d cut new isolation valves into zone flow/ returns and potentially pressure gauge attachment points where needed so I know nothing’s passing and I can be certain of the results.

Thank you, great advice, I will give it a go

 

[the lone ranger]

Ideal boiler loosing pressure (AT WITS END)
Hi all looking to converse about my boiler problem with people with knowledge. I’d be grateful for advice.
System

• Ideal Vogue S32 System Boiler
• Everflow Stainless unvented hot water cylinder (EN 300 P5)(300 liters)
• Drayton Mitime T740R timer/controller With 3x two port Auto valves giving 3 zones.
• Zone 1 Hot water, Zone 2 C/H upstairs, Zone 3 C/H downstairs

Also I can isolate the C/H system into 3 main areas with full bore isolation valves
Area 1 downstairs front of house (6 Rads)(traditional suspended wooden floor)
Area 2 downstairs back of house (6 Rads)(underground mainly in concrete)
Area 3 upstairs (12 rads)(all under floorboards)

• The system is quite large bur running within the manufactures capacity guide lines

At the beginning of December the boiler slowly started loosing pressure, but also acting erratic - pressure going high, over 3 Bar, when boiler running and with demand, eventually settling down to around 2 Bar. When there is no demand pressure rest about 1 Bar. But over a few days the pressure drops to zero. (usually overnight with no demand and boiler goes cold)

• Checked pressure release valve, no sign of discharge.
• Checked expansion vessel, a little low, no water, so repressured to .75 Bar, seams OK
• Called Ideal (10 years part & labor warranty) suspecting needing new heat exchange unit. (I hope)

5th January Boiler engineer arrives, changes pressure release valve and a sensor.
Puts pressure to 2 Bar and with Boiler off (didn’t think of that) monitors the pressure and over the next hour the pressure drops to around 1.75 Bar. He says I have a leak somewhere in the system.****

• So I embark on an investigation of an elimination program to find the leak.
• Isolate downstairs front of house. (if there is a leak I hope and pray its in this area).

After 2 days the pressure didn’t drop, I take up a floor board were I suspect the leak is and I find nothing.
Continue to monitor, and pressure drops slowly over the next few days.

• I repressurize the system, but this time I check that the system is completely full, bleeding all rads Etc. and still with just the front of house isolated I wait and hope.

Over the next 4 or 5 days the system looses pressure. I conclude that it’s not the area downstairs - front of house

• 13th January – I isolate upstairs (both downstairs areas on + Hot water) & repressurize to 1Bar

Pressure fluctuates up & down like a yoyo to start with, then settles when demand is on to around 1.75 Bar. (pressure is dropping to 1 Bar when no demand and boiler cooling).

• Next morning no pressure again, BUT when I try to repressurize I can physically see the pressure dropping fast. The pressure eventually stabilizes. ( maybe because most of the C/H system is upstairs (over 2 floors) and when in circuit it was giving some kind of pressure stability?)

I monitor this but the pressure drops again, it’s acting erratically high when there is demand but dropping to about 1Bar with no demand, then loosing pressure eventually over night when the boiler goes off. (maybe expansion & contraction of pipes, making a seal when hot and opening up when it cools?)

• 14th January PM. I isolate upstairs & downstairs back of house, the pressure indicates 1.5 Bar, which is ok for boiler going off for the night. In the morning again no pressure ( were is the water going???)
• 15th January AM. I isolate all areas, turn off C/H but keep hot water on, again I can’t manage to stabilize the pressure, it is going down at the same speed as I am pressurizing the system. (maybe there is a fracture inside the hot water cylinder coils??).
• I disconnected Condensate and diverted into a bucket to measure. It produces about 1 ltr per day – is this normal or excessive?
• To double check I again isolated the back of house and upstairs for the whole day – the pressure still drops in the evening when there is no demand.
• Sorry this is a lot of information – I hope someone out there will know what to do – I’d be most grateful for your expert advice and ideas.

Thanks
Nick

check the expansion vessel and monitor the PRV !

 

[heeleyc]

Fill boiler to a pressure of 1.5. Isolate heating circuit at boiler via valves. Leave for 24 hours. If boiler pressure has dropped then either leak from PRV (which should be obvious) or leak from primary heat exchanger which will be going direct into condensate, this may not be so apparent but will be if you can disconnect condensate pipe. Now open valves, if boiler pressure immediately drops then leak is in heating circuit. Note though that if you have a leak in the heat exchanger this sometimes is not apparent until the boiler is hot, so maybe after heating has run for a while disconnect condensate pipe and check that there isn't a constant drip from it.

 

[Ricky]

Ideal boiler loosing pressure (AT WITS END)
Hi all looking to converse about my boiler problem with people with knowledge. I’d be grateful for advice.
System

• Ideal Vogue S32 System Boiler
• Everflow Stainless unvented hot water cylinder (EN 300 P5)(300 liters)
• Drayton Mitime T740R timer/controller With 3x two port Auto valves giving 3 zones.
• Zone 1 Hot water, Zone 2 C/H upstairs, Zone 3 C/H downstairs

Also I can isolate the C/H system into 3 main areas with full bore isolation valves
Area 1 downstairs front of house (6 Rads)(traditional suspended wooden floor)
Area 2 downstairs back of house (6 Rads)(underground mainly in concrete)
Area 3 upstairs (12 rads)(all under floorboards)

• The system is quite large bur running within the manufactures capacity guide lines

At the beginning of December the boiler slowly started loosing pressure, but also acting erratic - pressure going high, over 3 Bar, when boiler running and with demand, eventually settling down to around 2 Bar. When there is no demand pressure rest about 1 Bar. But over a few days the pressure drops to zero. (usually overnight with no demand and boiler goes cold)

• Checked pressure release valve, no sign of discharge.
• Checked expansion vessel, a little low, no water, so repressured to .75 Bar, seams OK
• Called Ideal (10 years part & labor warranty) suspecting needing new heat exchange unit. (I hope)

5th January Boiler engineer arrives, changes pressure release valve and a sensor.
Puts pressure to 2 Bar and with Boiler off (didn’t think of that) monitors the pressure and over the next hour the pressure drops to around 1.75 Bar. He says I have a leak somewhere in the system.****

• So I embark on an investigation of an elimination program to find the leak.
• Isolate downstairs front of house. (if there is a leak I hope and pray its in this area).

After 2 days the pressure didn’t drop, I take up a floor board were I suspect the leak is and I find nothing.
Continue to monitor, and pressure drops slowly over the next few days.

• I repressurize the system, but this time I check that the system is completely full, bleeding all rads Etc. and still with just the front of house isolated I wait and hope.

Over the next 4 or 5 days the system looses pressure. I conclude that it’s not the area downstairs - front of house

• 13th January – I isolate upstairs (both downstairs areas on + Hot water) & repressurize to 1Bar

Pressure fluctuates up & down like a yoyo to start with, then settles when demand is on to around 1.75 Bar. (pressure is dropping to 1 Bar when no demand and boiler cooling).

• Next morning no pressure again, BUT when I try to repressurize I can physically see the pressure dropping fast. The pressure eventually stabilizes. ( maybe because most of the C/H system is upstairs (over 2 floors) and when in circuit it was giving some kind of pressure stability?)

I monitor this but the pressure drops again, it’s acting erratically high when there is demand but dropping to about 1Bar with no demand, then loosing pressure eventually over night when the boiler goes off. (maybe expansion & contraction of pipes, making a seal when hot and opening up when it cools?)

• 14th January PM. I isolate upstairs & downstairs back of house, the pressure indicates 1.5 Bar, which is ok for boiler going off for the night. In the morning again no pressure ( were is the water going???)
• 15th January AM. I isolate all areas, turn off C/H but keep hot water on, again I can’t manage to stabilize the pressure, it is going down at the same speed as I am pressurizing the system. (maybe there is a fracture inside the hot water cylinder coils??).
• I disconnected Condensate and diverted into a bucket to measure. It produces about 1 ltr per day – is this normal or excessive?
• To double check I again isolated the back of house and upstairs for the whole day – the pressure still drops in the evening when there is no demand.
• Sorry this is a lot of information – I hope someone out there will know what to do – I’d be most grateful for your expert advice and ideas.

Thanks
Nick

very occasionely heat exchangers spilt and water goes down condense so you dont see it leaking, not sure if ideals are prone to this
Only had this twice before so it is only a slight possibility

 

[Jerry]

Super late to the party but...

I heard a story once. Go to Poundland. Buy a cheap bottle of perfume. Put it in your system.

Follow your nose.

Now, I have never tried this and wouldn't know if there could be any possible negative side effects on the CH system but......