How long to install shower pump? Reality check required, please.

[Ric2013]

Hi. I'm currently estimating on installing a new shower pump to feed an existing bath/shower diverter.

Hot side: fit flange and spherical valve and Y strainer to old cylinder, reduce to 15 mm and to pump flexi and reconnect existing hot distributing pipe.
Repair shelf in AC and fit twin impeller pump.
New spur from existing circuit in A/C to new FCU for pump.
Cold side: drain CWSC, clean out, overhaul FOV, replace sagging chipboard with ply or T & G, new tank connector outlet, spherical valve, pipe in 22 around loft hatch and through ceiling into A/C, spherical valve, line strainer, reduce to 15, and to pump flexi.
Outlets: 15mm up through ceiling of AC, around loft hatch, auto air vents at highest point, and drop through ceiling down bathroom wall (visible) and under bath. Remove old pump from under bath, connect pumped 15mm to existing runs to bath tap/shower diverter, and cut out dead leg.

Insulate all new pipework except visible pipe in bathroom. All copper.

Cylinder stat is working, but out of calibration, so also need to bring it up to temperature slowly and check the outlet until it is actually 60 and not 75! And then dab of glue to stop people fiddling, methinks.

There seems to be a fair amount of pratting about with cleaning/servicing, carpentry, and electrics. Have to drop via loft as customer doesn't want floor lifting. Loft access is good, but CWSC is on the other side of the hatch from the AC and the F&E is directly above the AC, so this makes it a bit more fiddly.

Am I mad to think I'd be lucky to get this done in 2 days @ 8hours a day? I am thinking it's 2 days and a few hours to finish off on day 3...

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I would allow 2 days

 

[Ric2013]

I would allow 2 days

Well, considering my day rate is below-average (£190, a tenner off if they pay promply), then it sounds as if I'm not far off then.

 

[Knappers]

£190?
Do you cycle to work and use their tools?

 

[Murdoch]

Well, considering my day rate is below-average (£190, a tenner off if they pay promply), then it sounds as if I'm not far off then.

Wow that's low.

A friend of mine in Guildford got quoted last week £200 to turn up and £175 per hour .......

 

[Ric2013]

£190?
Do you cycle to work and use their tools?

I'm not very fast, I believe. I can only charge the going rate for the task in hand. I have seen another local plumber whose work is not as good as mine because he is slapdash but he is also extremely quick and skilled: it is obvious that he probably could do work to my standard FAR quicker than I do.

I only cycle to the merchants on occasion as it beats sitting in traffic when I haven't heavy or bulky stuff to carry.

Realistically, my day rate is not my hourly rate x 8, so if I get small jobs, they are still worth my while.

 

[Ric2013]

Wow that's low.

A friend of mine in Guildford got quoted last week £200 to turn up and £175 per hour .......

Guildford is a quarter of the distance from the M25 Colchester is... must be an expensive area... but did he accept the quote? When I hear people (not people asking me to do work and thus trying to lower my charges) in Colchester tell me plumbers charge a lot, they generally quote a figure that isn't much more than mine.

The anticipated materials for this come to £794 (including my 10% mark-up). I swore too when I saw the total. Some of my material prices have more than doubled in the last few years.

How much can we expect customers to afford? Add 380 (2 days @ 190) and you have £1174. 3 days makes it £1364. Do people really pay that to have a shower pump fitted? Blows my mind a little if they do.

Open questions - I am not saying I know the answers.

 

[Timmy D]

Guildford is a quarter of the distance from the M25 Colchester is... must be an expensive area... but did he accept the quote? When I hear people (not people asking me to do work and thus trying to lower my charges) in Colchester tell me plumbers charge a lot, they generally quote a figure that isn't much more than mine.

The anticipated materials for this come to £794 (including my 10% mark-up). I swore too when I saw the total. Some of my material prices have more than doubled in the last few years.

How much can we expect customers to afford? Add 380 (2 days @ 190) and you have £1174. 3 days makes it £1364. Do people really pay that to have a shower pump fitted? Blows my mind a little if they do.

Open questions - I am not saying I know the answers.

If that’s your day rate, why are you working for yourself when you can get that working for someone else, without all the headache of running your own jobs, getting materials, quotes etc.
After your overheads, what are you actually taking home? £150, £130 a day?

You pretty much need to double your prices. I’m outer London, within m25 and I’m anywhere between £400-£600 a day depending on domestic/commercial.
Go into London and it’s £750-£1,100.

Forget factoring in materials, the materials cost is the materials. That cost will be similar whoever does the work.

If you’re not losing 25%-50% of your quotes due to price, you’re to cheap.

I also get full payment up front and pretty much only work on referrals.

If they don’t wanna pay, I don’t need the work/headache.

Just make sure the quality backs up the price.

 

[Murdoch]

Guildford is a quarter of the distance from the M25 Colchester is... must be an expensive area... but did he accept the quote?

No. Dusted off his tools after a visit to toolstation

 

[SimonG]

2 days labour, materials plus 30% and a bit added on for the chew.

 

[Ric2013]

If that’s your day rate, why are you working for yourself when you can get that working for someone else, without all the headache of running your own jobs, getting materials, quotes etc.

Because when I'm abroad for 3 months at a time due to my other responsibilities, who would take me on? I've done agency labouring construction which was sometimes fun, but without the security of set hours, and the pay isn't much.

After your overheads, what are you actually taking home? £150, £130 a day?

Well, if we say the van costs me 55p a mile, and I put 15% of the rest aside to cover insurance and stuff, I would say my takehome from that could be around £150. It would be alright if I were getting 3-4 days a week.

You pretty much need to double your prices. I’m outer London, within m25 and I’m anywhere between £400-£600 a day depending on domestic/commercial.
Go into London and it’s £750-£1,100.

You're also a gas installer, presumably with unvented: I have an NVQ2. And I bet you're faster than I am. Also, if London is more than M25, it stands to reason Essex/Suffolk border cannot be as much as M25. How much less is a good question though! My plan was to advertise and get to the point where I could afford to lose work on price, but after my father died, the plan changed to being to keep my hand in, and keeping existing customers serviced, until I get the other stuff sorted out and can concentrate on my work.

Forget factoring in materials, the materials cost is the materials. That cost will be similar whoever does the work.

The point I'm making is that while those costs are non-negotiable, so is the customer budget.

Just make sure the quality backs up the price.

Exactly.

Out of interest, do you do anything specific to encourage referals or does it just happen?

 

[Ric2013]

2 days labour, materials plus 30% and a bit added on for the chew.

Well, I've priced for 3 days (at my rates), and materials plus 10% so the grand total comes to £1364 which is exactly equal to the result of your formula, assuming a chew to be worth £45 lol.

It'll be interesting to see the outcome: the price is for some friends who are renting and the landlord, having had the job badly bodged a year ago (pump failing already), said get it done and take it out of the rent if they knew a decent plumber. That is why I was fixing the price - so they don't have arguments at a later date. The landlord may prefer to bodge it and consider a pump to be an annual replacement?

 

[Timmy D]

Because when I'm abroad for 3 months at a time due to my other responsibilities, who would take me on? I've done agency labouring construction which was sometimes fun, but without the security of set hours, and the pay isn't much.


Well, if we say the van costs me 55p a mile, and I put 15% of the rest aside to cover insurance and stuff, I would say my takehome from that could be around £150. It would be alright if I were getting 3-4 days a week.


You're also a gas installer, presumably with unvented: I have an NVQ2. And I bet you're faster than I am. Also, if London is more than M25, it stands to reason Essex/Suffolk border cannot be as much as M25. How much less is a good question though! My plan was to advertise and get to the point where I could afford to lose work on price, but after my father died, the plan changed to being to keep my hand in, and keeping existing customers serviced, until I get the other stuff sorted out and can concentrate on my work.


The point I'm making is that while those costs are non-negotiable, so is the customer budget.


Exactly.

Out of interest, do you do anything specific to encourage referals or does it just happen?

I understand your reasons, and didn’t mean to come across as bashing you.

At first I struggled with pricing and knowing my value.

Sorry, I didn’t realise you’re not Gas safe. That obviously has a big impact on cost.

I’m not the fastest, but I reckon I’m up there with the best of them in quality.

Referrals happen naturally. I did a small job for someone, got asked to look at it after BG had quoted £1.5k to fix an issue. I fixed it for £150, it was a friend of a friend.

Within 6 months, I’ve worked in 4 other properties, for people directly related to the first. Not small jobs either.

I think the biggest driver for referrals is just be honest. Explain the problem/solution/costs like you’re talking to your mum. I don’t hide anything or “sell” additional works, it just happens. People value honesty and don’t want to feel ripped off.

On a referral, went to remove 4 shower tiles and replace a valve last Friday. Explained that the grout is going to look slightly off colour as it’s new and if they wanted, I’d grind out the old and replace it all. Told them that if there are loose tiles, removing grout could disturb them.
They agreed. Unfortunately, the grout was the only thing holding the tiles on .
Removed some loose ones.....45 tiles later and I’m now removing ply, installing wedi board/tanking/retiling/new lights/twin extractor fan ducting.
Also just got asked to tile the hallway/regrout the dining room floor tiles/fix boxing, plaster, decorate damage/replace toilet internals/remove a steam unit/service the boiler....

I guess the other thing is rapport, ask the correct questions to ensure you understand why your there and that enables you to set realistic expectations.

A month ago, I got asked if I’ll do a working holiday for a month in the summer at a customers other property.

 

[Knappers]

To be honest - fair enough.
I'm prone to having a moan about slower or less experienced guys overcharging, so I shouldn't pull you up for charging what you think your worth.
I charge 300-350 for day rate in midlands and have started lengthening my work time on jobs so I can do a quality job that I'm proud of.
What I will say tho is you don't want to loose out on work for being too cheap, believe it or not that's a thing!
Also (customer satisfaction wise) I think your better off overquoting and not having to go to customer with any extras so if you raised prices to say £250 and absorbed some of the unexpected cost in some jobs then your referral rate and customer satisfaction would likely improve.

 

[Ric2013]

Thanks to all for the feedback. Re referalls, I used to get a few calls from people who said I'd come recommend when I lived in a ruralish community in Wales, but not in Colchester, even when I know darn well that someone has passed on my details.

Knappers probably has a point about seeming too cheap at times, so it may be people don't think of me as a 'proper' plumber, and I suppose it leads to trying to compete with semi-retired and the like who work for beer money. Or that because I tend to do the hidden work such as shower pumps and not the flash stuff that gets noticed like bathrooms, it isn't the kind of work that gets people interested?

I don't want to undermine the industry/be the source of unfair competition, so it is interesting to hear Knappers say he's charging 300 plus. I will keep an eye on it, and think about my prices again in April with the new tax year.

 

[SimonG]

Thanks to all for the feedback. Re referalls, I used to get a few calls from people who said I'd come recommend when I lived in a ruralish community in Wales, but not in Colchester, even when I know darn well that someone has passed on my details.

Knappers probably has a point about seeming too cheap at times, so it may be people don't think of me as a 'proper' plumber, and I suppose it leads to trying to compete with semi-retired and the like who work for beer money. Or that because I tend to do the hidden work such as shower pumps and not the flash stuff that gets noticed like bathrooms, it isn't the kind of work that gets people interested?

I don't want to undermine the industry/be the source of unfair competition, so it is interesting to hear Knappers say he's charging 300 plus. I will keep an eye on it, and think about my prices again in April with the new tax year.

If it works for you that's all that matters.

 

[Ric2013]

Also (customer satisfaction wise) I think your better off overquoting and not having to go to customer with any extras so if you raised prices to say £250 and absorbed some of the unexpected cost in some jobs then your referral rate and customer satisfaction would likely improve.

That's always my plan. Had a blocked sink waste the other day. Told the lady my first hour was £70 which she reluctantly accepted. Turned out to be a simple blocked bottle trap needed clearing, but I actually made it into a genuine hour's work by deburring the pipe spigot properly, tying up the washing machine waste that was far too low, and eliminating the backslope between the two sinks, leaving everything cleaner than it was when I arrived so I managed to add value and it felt like I had done something socially useful.

The lady sent me a text to thank me that evening for coming out on short notice and for doing the work and to let me know she had just sent BACS payment, so I think she was happier than she expected to be.

 

[Timmy D]

Thanks to all for the feedback. Re referalls, I used to get a few calls from people who said I'd come recommend when I lived in a ruralish community in Wales, but not in Colchester, even when I know darn well that someone has passed on my details.

Knappers probably has a point about seeming too cheap at times, so it may be people don't think of me as a 'proper' plumber, and I suppose it leads to trying to compete with semi-retired and the like who work for beer money. Or that because I tend to do the hidden work such as shower pumps and not the flash stuff that gets noticed like bathrooms, it isn't the kind of work that gets people interested?

I don't want to undermine the industry/be the source of unfair competition, so it is interesting to hear Knappers say he's charging 300 plus. I will keep an eye on it, and think about my prices again in April with the new tax year.

Charging too little is undermining the industry.

 

[Chuck]

Charging too little is undermining the industry.

If @Timmy D takes two days at £300 / day for a job and @Ric2013 takes three days at £200 / day for the same job the cost to the customer is the same and I don't see that either of them is 'undermining the industry'.

@Timmy D's story about a job where he ended up doing a some carpentry and tiling is an interesting example of how hour/day rates don't tell the whole story. In terms of hourly rates it makes no sense to have a Gas Safe plumber tiling. On the other hand, he made a decision that was optimal for the point of view of the whole job; tiling was on the critical path so it was cheaper overall to have him do it than to stand down while a tiler was brought in.

 

[Ric2013]

If @Timmy D takes two days at £300 / day for a job and @Ric2013 takes three days at £200 / day for the same job the cost to the customer is the same and I don't see that either of them is 'undermining the industry'.

Thank you.

 

[Ric2013]

Charging too little is undermining the industry.

You meet people who tell you they had whatever work (not necessarily plumbing) carried out and were charged £50 and you think it's a good price but... was he [the workman] paying any tax?

 

[Timmy D]

If @Timmy D takes two days at £300 / day for a job and @Ric2013 takes three days at £200 / day for the same job the cost to the customer is the same and I don't see that either of them is 'undermining the industry'.

@Timmy D's story about a job where he ended up doing a some carpentry and tiling is an interesting example of how hour/day rates don't tell the whole story. In terms of hourly rates it makes no sense to have a Gas Safe plumber tiling. On the other hand, he made a decision that was optimal for the point of view of the whole job; tiling was on the critical path so it was cheaper overall to have him do it than to stand down while a tiler was brought in.

Here’s another one, customer had a corrugated plastic lean to roof covering their side alley. I needed to get on top to change the boiler flue.

I made customer aware that it’s highly likely some of it will crack.

She said that she wanted to change the roof anyway, so no problem.

I said that I could change it if she wanted but she would be paying gas engineer rates and that a builder would do it for half my rates.

She didn’t even hesitate, and told me to go ahead because she trusted the quality of my work.

Ended up fabricating a custom welded frame on site (6m x 1m) with a lead box gutter and 6 x 1m2 double glazed glass panels as the roof. 1 of them I put on hinges and hydraulic rams for future flue access and glass cleaning.

Ended up costing more than a builder, but customer expectations were set and she got exactly what she wanted.

 

[Ric2013]

Ended up fabricating a custom welded frame on site (6m x 1m) with a lead box gutter and 6 x 1m2 double glazed glass panels as the roof. 1 of them I put on hinges and hydraulic rams for future flue access and glass cleaning.

Ended up costing more than a builder, but customer expectations were set and she got exactly what she wanted.

Sounds like you have a very wide skill base and the tools for it! Nice.

 

[Timmy D]

Sounds like you have a very wide skill base and the tools for it! Nice.

I try to keep learning, stops boredom, breaks up the work.

Did a zinc roof a year ago, that was interesting and enjoyable.

Honestly, 25% of my work is gas. Can’t remember the last time I did any catering.

Should have a 200-300kw plant room coming up. Prob 2 inch gas, maybe bigger. Should be fun.


Maybe you should get your oil ticket. Fun to work on and prob a bit around your area as you’re a bit further out.

 

[Ric2013]

Maybe you should get your oil ticket. Fun to work on and prob a bit around your area as you’re a bit further out.

Definitely. Either renewables, or oil, or heat-pumps. I do need an angle. And I definitely need to do my G3 (even if I only used it for small electric water heaters).

 

[SimonG]

Definitely. Either renewables, or oil, or heat-pumps. I do need an angle. And I definitely need to do my G3 (even if I only used it for small electric water heaters).

I don't know what the situation is with renewables and heat pumps, I always thought you had to be mcs registered. A right pile of red tape and not directed to sole traders or smaller companies.

Oil, a doddle especially if you can get some hands on time with somebody local. You can look at OFTEC but in essence not required.
I used to be registered but it's all kerching with them and not needed for service and repair. Installation can be done through building control, which is the way I go now.

 

[Timmy D]

I don't know what the situation is with renewables and heat pumps, I always thought you had to be mcs registered. A right pile of red tape and not directed to sole traders or smaller companies.

Oil, a doddle especially if you can get some hands on time with somebody local. You can look at OFTEC but in essence not required.
I used to be registered but it's all kerching with them and not needed for service and repair. Installation can be done through building control, which is the way I go now.

Agree.

I’ve only got a couple of oil sites. One is 2 x 350kw boilers installed in 1972....they are fun.

I’m pretty certain MCS is just so your customer can get the government grants, not otherwise needed.

I’ve also got my f-gas but don’t see how heat pumps can currently work in the centre of London....

 

[Ric2013]

I’ve also got my f-gas but don’t see how heat pumps can currently work in the centre of London....

Old, uninsulated buildings and a lack of space to mount air source units, I take it you mean?

 

[Ric2013]

I used to be registered but it's all kerching with them and not needed for service and repair. Installation can be done through building control, which is the way I go now.

I think a lot of it is kerching. I don't have a great deal of confidence that these schemes are a guarantee of quality.

I recently pulled out of a house purchase. Semi-basement conversion with serious damp issues and when I got hold of the design spec for the conversion, I found that the design... well, even I could see the proposal for making the room waterproof wasn't going to work (and my surveyor had a similar opinion). Yet the design had been approved and the works signed off by none other than the local council's Building Control department. Had the work been sound and the basement dry I would have been less concerned even if there were no certification.

 

[Timmy D]

Old, uninsulated buildings and a lack of space to mount air source units, I take it you mean?

Yup and undersized flow/returns/heat emitters for a low temp system.