Hopeless toilet flush

[Pitstop101]

I wonder if anyone is able to help with advice on this. We have fitted a new toilet and 6 litre cistern .. it flushes .. but not as efficiently as it should in my view. It usually needs at least 2 flushes to even shift just toilet paper. It hasn’t been used for anything other than that.

It’s a new toilet, rimless, and we chose this toilet because it was the only one we could find that would straddle the concrete collar around the soil pipe in the floor. Picture attached so you can see the soil pipe arrangement.

To enable us to eventually cover the cistern in with a false wall, the toilet needs to be slightly further forward to the cistern, but that meant we had to attach an extension pipe. We did try a couple of flexibles but they’d didn’t work as they pushed the toilet further out from the cistern, then after consulting with the plumbing dept at City Plumbing, we used the 90 degree pan connector and a McAlpine WC-CON-EXT (pic attached).

Everything seems to be in place fine, new toilet so no blockages or build up, the water level in the cistern appears correct and it fully empties on flushing.

Any advice would be very much appreciated. Thanks.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

The extension isn’t blocking / inserted past the vertical 4” pipe is it ?

 

[Deleted member 120897]

Can you show a photo of the water level? Check the flush pipe for a restriction too.

 

[snowhead]

And how far into the back of the pan is the flush pipe?

 

[oz-plumber]

From the pics everything seems fine.

I have fitted plenty of pans & cisterns that customers have complained about the same problems as you are.

You have plenty of height between cistern and pan and the outlet from the pan into the waste looks fine.

Contact Manufacturer and ask them questions.

It would be a delight if you could post their responses.

My general consensus on rimless pans:

1/2 Flush - No Solids & no paper.

Full Flush - No solids with paper - 1 Flush
Full Flush - Solids with paper - 2+ Flushes.

Welcome to the world of water saving toilets!!!

 

[Chainsawcharlie]

We also need to send plenty of water to the outside drains otherwise we get blockages in the outside drains due to too dry

 

[Pitstop101]

Hi and thanks so much for your replies. I’ve just posted the worst video in the world, but hopefully it might be helpful.

Shauncorbs: I’m not sure how much past the 4” toilet pipe the extension is, but we didn’t feel it was blocking anything, and thinking maybe an inch or so. The extension is pushed into the 90 degree connector, then the rubber flange end on the extension piece is pushed onto the back of the toilet pipe as recommended by City Plumbing.

ChrisB1982: The water level in the cistern seems ok, up to the mark, and adding more water to the top of the marker tube (another inch) doesn’t make any difference. This flush though, seems to leave an inch of water in the bottom of the cistern .. not sure if that would make such a difference to a full flush?

Snowhead: I’m not sure how far into the back of the pan the flush pipe goes, but I think we’re going to have to dismantle it all and check everything from scratch. Someone suggested it might be a casting fault .. so we’ll find a way to check that.

Oz-plumber: I’m starting to feel the same about rimless “and water saving” toilets. Half flush is pointless. I’m feeling the flush just doesn’t have the right force, even on a full flush .. although sometimes the flush water does splash a bit over the edge of the bowl at the front .. so some force is there.
I’m glad the cistern height sounds ok as I my next job was to find the fitting instructions in case it was too low .. but doesn’t sound the case.

I bought the loo from Tecaz, it’s called Rose by Reflections Bathrooms. I’ve since learned that Reflections Bathrooms is a Tecaz “own brand” .. they buy in bulk .. from wherever and brand it as their own. Because we bought it and didn’t fit it sharpish, it’s out of any kind of warranty/return. Oh Joy!!

Chainsawcharlie: we have 4 manholes outside, so I’ll lift the relevant one and flush to see that it all comes through ok. Not sure what else I can do on that one.

So, I have no problem buying a different loo, which won’t be rimless, or from Tecaz. If I have to change it .. I’m thinking maybe a close coupled might be a safer plan (unless I’d have the same issues), and forget the nice boxed in look. Might that be an option if we can’t find the problem with this one.

The only reason for this one, was that it was the only one I could find that would straddle that concrete collar .. all the others had openings at the back that were just too narrow, so the toilet would sit much further forward away from the soil pipe .. which might cause it’s own problems?

Just need a loo, with a view to a poo.
Fortunately, we have one upstairs, otherwise could have been in trouble.
Thanks again all.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

From the front of the extension it’s 113mm long

 

[king of pipes]

Often a problem I'm afraid as the 6 litre capacity just doesn't remove solids so a double flush is needed , this would work but it's not to everyones taste ? it's the height of the cistern that aids the power of the flush . Kop

 

[Ric2013]

Sometimes it's just poor toilet design. I've had an Ideal Standard Alto 'Eco' model for 10 years now. A close-coupled model, you know. 9 times out of 10, it flushes solids with paper with just a single full flush (4.2 litres).

Occasionally, it starts to semi block if I neglect the cleaning and descaling and this then results in double flushing, but I wouldn't say it has particular requirements. Unfortunately I have a lodger who seems to clean the pan obsessively, but never uses any actual toilet cleaning liquid, so while it may look clean and make me forget to do it, it isn't .

 

[Pitstop101]

Hi, just want to say a big thankyou for everyone’s input and share where I am with it at the moment.

We’ve had the whole thing to pieces to examine every bit, but I won’t bore you with photos.
The extension is only so far into the 4” vertical pipe, so not preventing any straightforward flow there.
Cistern height is at its maximum recommended height as per the fitting instructions, and water level and refill working spot on.
The flush pipe into the back of the pan can’t push in too far in, because a small ridge stops it going too far, no bad thing.

I’ve had a plumber in to look at it, and as oz-plumber said earlier, everything looks absolutely fine, no blockages, no casting issues, everything where it should be. The only comment in the end was maybe a bigger cistern, even though you can’t really get them now (yeah, water saving!) however, no guarantee it would be any different.

So, I’m thinking two things. I’ll either get another loo, not rimless, and see how that goes. Alternatively, just stick with this one and deal with the double flush as necessary .. and get over it.

Thanks again for all your help and comments.

 

[Ric2013]

It's occurred to me that some flush valves are better than others in that the affect the discharge rate pattern in differing ways. Some are genuinely 2" bore (if your pan is designed for that), others only 1.5" with possibly an adapter for 2" pans and the 2" will presumably give a shorter but more powerful flush whereas the narrower type will presumably give a longer but slower flush. You may find you can improve what you have just by sourcing a different flush mechanism.

 

[Pitstop101]

Thanks for that Ric2013 ... I'll check that out.

 

[Timmy D]

Take an angle grinder/hammer/chisel and remove the collar. With the collar gone, the toilet will go right back. You may get away with using the 90 pan connector or might need to swap it to a 90 swan neck.

Just be careful not to break the clay in the floor.

 

[Ric2013]

You may also find pushing the button sharply or softly will change the speed the flush starts at and this may affect performance <rollseyes>