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Why not use normal trvs are they connected to a hub ?
I put them in because originally - when I was trying to get ontop of the high gas usage - I programmed them to be off all day in the bedrooms and upstairs - as we obviously were not using them. But when I realised it didn’t affect the gas usage - and if anything the house felt colder and was struggling to heat - I just turned them back into dumb TRV’s basically.
 
And if you turn heating off but turn let’s say upstairs bedroom with a tado trv in on the boiler doesn’t fire ? Might be worth a test
 
And if you turn heating off but turn let’s say upstairs bedroom with a tado trv in on the boiler doesn’t fire ? Might be worth a test
Correct - in the tado app - you have to tell each room which controller to use to call for heat - or you can set “none” - which is what every room other than “downstairs” is set to.
 
I suppose, at the end of the day, if one is keeping the whole house including bathrooms at 21C then one one can expect high energy demand, I consume ~ 15,000kwh (oil) per annum but if I heated my whole house to 21C I would expect ~ 22,000kwh
 
I suppose, at the end of the day, if one is keeping the whole house including bathrooms at 21C then one one can expect high energy demand, I consume ~ 15,000kwh (oil) per annum but if I heated my whole house to 21C I would expect ~ 22,000kwh
Id probably be happy with 22000!!! 😀

Thanks for all your helps Guys! I sense we’re running out of road and I just need to accept my house now takes a lot more to heat!

Global warming? (Manchester is global cooling I think!)


Just one last question if I can - is there anything in the boiler that - if it wasn’t working properly could be causing it to run/burn more than it should? taking the view that 3 services have all found the basics to be ok (eg the oxygen/gas mix etc)
 
185kwh x 365 days is 67525kwh. Is that a normal Amount? Maybe I have unrealistic views? Id checked online and it seemed to suggest around 10-15000 was average to high for a 4 bed house.
My annual gas consumption is 26,000 kW hr (twice the national average), which is for a relatively poorly insulated five bed + three reception rooms house, most of which has to be kept at 21°C 24/7 because a family member is infirm and has to be kept warm.
 
Nope sorry to say no smoking gun
 
My annual gas consumption is 26,000 kW hr (twice the national average), which is for a relatively poorly insulated five bed + three reception rooms house, most of which has to be kept at 21°C 24/7 because a family member is infirm and has to be kept warm.
So I would say we’re probably similar in setup. 5 bed 3 reception room (open plan) and always at 21

Im not sure if the house would be classed as poorly insulated though? Has full cavity wall insulation - had a loft conversion done to regs with double layer of super foil over the whole thing.

The only part that needs attention is the front door a currently wood - that’s being replaced next week!

But pretty much all of that has been the same for the past 10 years! And only the last 2 has seen the increase.
 
I know it might sound weird but is / does it have cavity wall as a few new builds have been reported as having hollow spots etc
 
Would you mind just recapping briefly
What exactly has changed apart from energy consumption in the past few years re your control system.
 
Would you mind just recapping briefly
What exactly has changed apart from energy consumption in the past few years re your control system.

The only thing I can remember being changed was the meter. I don’t remember the change in the bills happening straight away though. The smart meter always used to show £3-4 a day total for gas and electricity.

Tado has always been in since we moved in. I added digital TRV’s after the issue to try and help.
 
The meter seemed to check out OK from all our calculations, I still think the key to the answer might be hidden somewhere here IF CH usage can be reasonably ruled out?


Somethings not adding up now anyway Steve. (maybe good)
You used 1257kwh of gas, apparently for HW heating. This equates to 43.4kwh/day for that 29day billing period. This equals to 36.9kwh/day at a boiler efficiency of 85%.
Assuming cold water at 12C heated to 60C, Litres of hot water = 36.9*860/(60-12), 661Litres.
This would equate to 1133 LPD at 40C.
Your actual water usage for both May and June was 460LPD for each month so ????.

Don't know how they came up with a estimated gas usage of 60550kwh/annum
 
That's why I posted this again, its pretty obvious that DHW usage couldn't account for the difference and as I said IF CH can reasonably be ruled out then ???. If one assumed DHW @ 200 litres/day at 60C = 12kwh so 31kwh unaccounted for. I still have a suspicion that the boiler was enabled and firing on its own stat which wouldn't take long to dissipate that 31kwh especially if that ABV was/is passing.
 
Any idea what the valve I have arrowed, which looks as though it could be partially tured on, is for?

Valve.jpg


Just curious....
 
That's why I posted this again, its pretty obvious that DHW usage couldn't account for the difference and as I said IF CH can reasonably be ruled out then ???. If one assumed DHW @ 200 litres/day at 60C = 12kwh so 31kwh unaccounted for. I still have a suspicion that the boiler was enabled and firing on its own stat which wouldn't take long to dissipate that 31kwh especially if that ABV was/is passing.
Just to add to the confirmation - here is yesterdays usage.


ABF4FDEE-E753-400D-954D-A3C2B86A37EB.png



We were all out around 9am - so the heating was disabled - however the hot water still heated 11-1.

So this shows that when the heating isn’t on - there is 0 gas usage.
 
That seems OK, elect use of 14.11Kwh & gas usage, (5.61x11.33), 63Kwh. I used 82kwh yesterday for CH+DHW. So everything seems fine? and the big problem was (last) summer usage?? You will just have to keep monitoring usage IMO, you have a excellent reporting system, just use gas meter to verify same.
Your bill below, for last summer gives 11.33kwh/M3 so used that, above.

Last summer you used a average of 43.36Kwh/day, for 29 days, apparently for DHW only, that equates to 775 LPD of hot water at 60C or 1328 LPD at 40C, enough to wash a small army?.


1642637049896.png
 
That seems OK, elect use of 14.11Kwh & gas usage, (5.61x11.33), 63Kwh. I used 82kwh yesterday for CH+DHW. So everything seems fine? and the big problem was (last) summer usage?? You will just have to keep monitoring usage IMO, you have a excellent reporting system, just use gas meter to verify same.
Your bill below, for last summer gives 11.33kwh/M3 so used that, above.

Last summer you used a average of 43.36Kwh/day, for 29 days, apparently for DHW only, that equates to 775 LPD of hot water at 60C or 1328 LPD at 40C, enough to wash a small army?.


View attachment 72985
Thanks John. Yes yesterday was ok when the heating was not on

But the day before was this — which I think shows the boiler was almost flat out the whole day pretty much
58169D83-1E43-42B5-A6EC-93638C8EA347.png


And this was how it heated the house
84ABF5C9-37F6-4225-B83E-560652DED4C1.png
 
Heating was not on yesterday, wasn't on the ball there as I thought you went out at 9PM, so you used apparently 63Kwh on DHW, assuming mains at 6C, = 1,003 litres of water at 60C. The DHW heating was enabled from 11 to 1, 2 hours?? so the coil had to be inputting 31.5kwh/hr or a 31.5kw coil, no way. If you assume say 10kwh max was used for DHY heating then, 63-10, 53Kwh unaccounted for, if you take yesterdays usage, of 15.68M3, 178Kwh and subtract 53Kwh you end up with 125Kwh which then isn't outrageous or if no HW heating then consumption, 178-63, 115Kwh, normal enough for your sized house + DHW needs??.

IF no body pinching gas and IF no meter problems then it goes back to the boiler firing, you were averaging ~ 0.3M3/hr, 3.4kw which can easily be dissipated in the piping with all zone valves closed.
I thought you said you were going to run on the cylinder immersion for a few days with the heating coil didabled?. If/when you next go out then monitor the energy usage.

1642666699321.png
 
Heating was not on yesterday, wasn't on the ball there as I thought you went out at 9PM, so you used apparently 63Kwh on DHW, assuming mains at 6C, = 1,003 litres of water at 60C. The DHW heating was enabled from 11 to 1, 2 hours?? so the coil had to be inputting 31.5kwh/hr or a 31.5kw coil, no way. If you assume say 10kwh max was used for DHY heating then, 63-10, 53Kwh unaccounted for, if you take yesterdays usage, of 15.68M3, 178Kwh and subtract 53Kwh you end up with 125Kwh which then isn't outrageous of if no HW heating then consumption, 178-63, 115Kwh, normal enough for your sized house + DHW needs??.

IF no body pinching gas and IF no meter problems then it goes back to the boiler firing, you were averaging ~ 0.3M3/hr, 3.4kw which you easily be dissipated in the piping with all zone valves closed.
I thought you said you were going to run on the cylinder immersion for a few days with the heating coil didabled?. If/when you next go out then monitor the energy usage.

View attachment 72992

Correct me if I’m wrong - but yesterdays usage pretty much shows how much gas the boiler uses to fire up for the HW only (we can see that between 11-1) which looks like

.62m3 from 11-11.30
.34m3 from 11.30-12
.05m3 from 12-12.30
0 from 12.30 to 1 (I’m presuming the water was at temperature and didn’t need heating)

So on the basis that that usage above is right - I would say the only logical change that happens the rest of the day when we are in is that the room stat is calling for heat - which the boiler is trying to fulfil.

Either the house never gets to the temperature because
1) The house just can’t do it due to insualtion issues?
2) the boiler isnt getting hot enough water around? Pump issue? Temperature of the water?
 
Yes, didn,t realize heating was on earlier and the cylinder consumption of ~ 11.5kwh seems spot on to heat ~ 200 litres of water. So yesterdays CH consumption was ~ 178-11.5, 167Kwh, suppose seems a bit on the high side but you are heating a lot of house for long periods each day. You were averaging ~ 8 to 10 kw boiler output.
 
Yes, didn,t realize heating was on earlier and the cylinder consumption of ~ 11.5kwh seems spot on to heat ~ 200 litres of water. So yesterdays CH consumption was ~ 178-11.5, 167Kwh, suppose seems a bit on the high side but you are heating a lot of house for long periods each day. You were averaging ~ 8 to 10 kw boiler output.
Yes, didn,t realize heating was on earlier and the cylinder consumption of ~ 11.5kwh seems spot on to heat ~ 200 litres of water. So yesterdays CH consumption was ~ 178-11.5, 167Kwh, suppose seems a bit on the high side but you are heating a lot of house for long periods each day. You were averaging ~ 8 to 10 kw boiler output.
Ok - if that’s in the realms of possibility I guess I can accept that.

The only thing in the back of my mind is that my usage for 7 years was static with an average of 8-10000 a year - and now it’s 60000…. Just strange!

Apart from an Epc - are there any tests I can have that can pinpoint how to increase the thermal effficiency of the house?
 
Even if you averaged 160Kwh/day for the whole heating season of ~ 150days + 11Kwh/day DHW, 365 days/year, then your usage at say 28,000Kwh/year is a long long way from 60,000Kwh/year. although still way higher than your former usage of 10,000Kwh/year.
Don't know anything about increasing the thermal efficiency.
 
Not going to read back but have you took into account that for two years our way of living has changed, eg first year of lockdown working from home heating used more. Not saying this is it but have you taken it into account
 
Just throwing this out there. What if the old meter was under reading and you have actually been using this amount of gas per year. New meter gets installed 2 years ago, reads correctly and now you notice it.
 
Just throwing this out there. What if the old meter was under reading and you have actually been using this amount of gas per year. New meter gets installed 2 years ago, reads correctly and now you notice it.
Very valid point! It could well be!!! And I’ve no real way to prove it now!
 
Very valid point! It could well be!!! And I’ve no real way to prove it now!
From reading the thread, everything pretty much checks out. Nothing posted stands out as odd for a property like yours. Perhaps if I saw the property it would, who knows.

From the basics, you check the gas line for tightness. No leaks confirmed. Good.

You check the boiler consumption/meter readings, yup it’s using the correct amount of gas. Good.

This means gas is only being used to generate heat via combustion.

This heat has to go somewhere.

No leaks on the cylinder wasting hot water. Good.

House not too warm. Good.

Not really anywhere else an increase of 5 times previous could come from.
 
From reading the thread, everything pretty much checks out. Nothing posted stands out as odd for a property like yours. Perhaps if I saw the property it would, who knows.

From the basics, you check the gas line for tightness. No leaks confirmed. Good.

You check the boiler consumption/meter readings, yup it’s using the correct amount of gas. Good.

This means gas is only being used to generate heat via combustion.

This heat has to go somewhere.

No leaks on the cylinder wasting hot water. Good.

House not too warm. Good.

Not really anywhere else an increase of 5 times previous could come from.
Your synopsis seems sound.

I’ve spoke to a thermal imaging and heat efficiency company who really new their stuff and pretty much said their same. They do thermal scans and air tightness test to see where the heat is escaping and advise on the remedial work we could look at - so I’m seriously considering it to at least get some closure!
 
Your synopsis seems sound.

I’ve spoke to a thermal imaging and heat efficiency company who really new their stuff and pretty much said their same. They do thermal scans and air tightness test to see where the heat is escaping and advise on the remedial work we could look at - so I’m seriously considering it to at least get some closure!
I agree.

This isn’t a dig, just my experience. Customers always talk about what can they do to save money on gas, can we upgrade to smart controls, upgrade the boiler etc.

Once you take into account the cost of these items, they really don’t save a huge amount. I’m not saying don’t do them, but they are not the golden gun.

A property takes a certain amount of heat energy to keep it at a certain temperature. Today’s high efficiency boilers running efficiency in the 90%+, don’t have a lot of room to improve.

With that and the age of our housing stock (subpar thermal insulation), the best efficiency increase is to stop that heat from escaping the property.
 
I think your Worcester bosch junior 24i system boiler is not getting the proper gas supply that's why your boiler not working properly. The heating output is 24Kw is ideal for any property with around 15 radiators.

Please share the pics so that I can help you more efficiently. If your boiler comes under the brand warranty then please contact customer care.

The second option will be you can take advice from the professional rooter and plumbing service provider near your area. Because the boiler system needs an engineer to fix it.
so please explain why a 24kw boiler is good for a number of rads?
 
I agree.

This isn’t a dig, just my experience. Customers always talk about what can they do to save money on gas, can we upgrade to smart controls, upgrade the boiler etc.

Once you take into account the cost of these items, they really don’t save a huge amount. I’m not saying don’t do them, but they are not the golden gun.

A property takes a certain amount of heat energy to keep it at a certain temperature. Today’s high efficiency boilers running efficiency in the 90%+, don’t have a lot of room to improve.

With that and the age of our housing stock (subpar thermal insulation), the best efficiency increase is to stop that heat from escaping the property.
No offence taken! I think your right and The survey will just be to put a final confirmation on it!
 
This is why you install a continous water heater and a separate heating boiler. Saves lost of money while providing perfect comfort levels...and they are really cheap to buy...with gas price trends being higher in the medium term, the ROI will be very short
 

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