Has my hot water cylinder coil broke?

[Dave18183]

Open a hot water tap to allow air in and help drain the pipework. (The glugging sound on the video is the clue that this is needed.)

Ive had the nearest hot tap open througout the drainning

This slight flow that has been draining out from a short refill has just finished. Took a long time, and cant help but feel more water than what I let back in the tank just to wash ip up again.

 

[Dave18183]

Fill the boiler up to 1 bar once the cylinder has stopped draining does the cylinder start running with water

Ive tried tried to do this. Went abit past 1 bar, but in using the filling loop water was coming into the tank anyway and yess it did drain down (hot water tap was open not sure if it was meant to be)

 

[Dave18183]

I have refilled the tank completely now, its full but some pressure is returning to the boiler 0.2 Bar to 0.7bar, the filling loop valve is shut.

How can the CH pressure increase by filling the DHW tank if they are separate systems? Is this not a sign that there is A breach i.e. coil split/perforated

 

[ShaunCorbs]

So you filled the ch sys to 1 bar then opened / left open the cylinder drain and water came out and the boiler pressure went down ?

 

[Dave18183]

So, the tank refill was complete, central heating and hot water


I’ve still not opened the filling loop to fill the boiler/central heating system but the boilder pressure

So you filled the ch sys to 1 bar then opened / left open the cylinder drain and water came out and the boiler pressure went down ?

yes, as above. Ive tried tried to do this. I did go a bit past 1 bar in filling back, but in my configuration, opening the filling loop and the col water valve (on the picture I put that you asked for) water is also going into the empty tank at the same TimE (not sure that is what you intended.

I began to drain the tank/cyclinder, opened a hot water tap to let air escape, drained the cylinder totally and the pressure at the boiler dropped to as it was ealrier in the day when emptied (about 0.2 bar) the water was a little discoloured.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Right don’t fill the heating system up remove the flexi link

open the cold water to the cylinder and vent eg fill it up

does the heating system pressure rise

 

[Dave18183]

Ive then after above, refilled the cyclinder/tank fully with the filling loop valve (to the central heating) closed. Boiler gauge was at 0.2bar.

The tank was full and I left it for a couple of hours. Boiler i.e. central heating pressure is now just short of 1.8 bar

How can the CH / boiler pressure increase with the filling loop valve closed? Other than filling slowly through a coil breach?

Ive just opened the filling loop just now and there was no inrush of water at all.

ive turned the heating and hot water back on now for the first time all day

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Remove one side of the filling loop is there water coming out ?

 

[Dave18183]

Remove one side of the filling loop is there water coming out ?

So with DHW tank and CH seemingly fully filled now, remove the loop a the blue circle with the filling loop valve closed (as in the picture).

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Correct right nut on the flexi remove slowly encase there’s water there

 

[Dave18183]

Correct right nut on the flexi remove slowly encase there’s water there

Ok. Done. No drips or flow

turned the HW and CH off before I did it

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Is the water back onto the cylinder?

 

[Dave18183]

Is the water back onto the cylinder?

Yes fully open. Here is what you see. And the cold water isolation fully open (spindle extended) at the back

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Then yes I would concur that your hot water cylinder has failed somewhere

 

[Dave18183]

Then yes I would concur that your hot water cylinder has failed somewhere

Ok thankyou. For my understanding. Can you help me understand how what I did helped you determine this? On it own or with something else I have done this far. Thanks

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Your filling loop could of been passing eg feeding and back feeding the cold water

your heating pressure drains and refills when you drain or refill the cylinder

 

[Dave18183]

Your filling loop could of been passing eg feeding and back feeding the cold water

your heating pressure drains and refills when you drain or refill the cylinder

Thanks. least I know the problem, though gutted as it’s going to be a costly fix.
best find check my pockets for £1000+ lying around .

my Vaillant Boiler is old but working (borrowed time).

will I need to replace the cyclinder with a Vaillant one to go with the Vaillant boiler. I’ve heard they are on the expensive side “just because it’s vaillant”.

 

[SJB060685]

Pressure/pressures always try to reach an equilibrium. Your sealed heating system is usually pressurised to around 1 bar, depending on certain things, whereas your unvented hot water system will usually be restricted to 2.5-3 bar. If the filling loop fails your sealed heating system pressure will creep to whatever the pressure relief valve is set to, normally 2.5- 3 bar before it acts and discharges. If the coil splits (which seems to be the case) then the same will happen, the heating system pressure will rise until an equilibrium is reached or the pressure relief valve acts. Remember a lot about plumbing systems and thermodynamics is all about the equilibrium.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

You can go with another manufacturer but if your planning on going with a new vaillant boiler when the other one goes then it’s best to match as there controls work together

 

[Ric2013]

I've been thinking about this and how it all makes sense in hindsight. This would be my reconstruction, and hopefully people will tell me if they think it is wrong:

The OP had a sealed system (primary water) at 1 bar (estimated) pressure. That's the heating system. There was also a mains pressure cylinder. The two systems should not be able to mix at the coil, but the coil was starting to leak.

Presumably the mains pressure is not that high (or there is a pressure reducing valve) so the pressure in the cylinder was not much greater than in the sealed heating system so some kind of rough equilibrium developed without the heating system PRV having to open. Some mixing of the two water systems occurred as pressures fluctuated, but this was minimal as the 2 systems had roughly equal pressures. Enough to lead to active corrosion and brown water in the heating system (rather than a small amount of black sediment), but not enough for the OP to notice a problem.

Then the mains failed. At this point, the heating system pressure was much higher than the pressure in the cylinder and a large quantity of heating system water had to run into the cylinder to restore equal pressures. This may have enlarged the existing leak and noticeably contaminated the cylinder water.

If the OP does not intend to replace his boiler immediately, I would recommend that when he has the cylinder changed he makes some effort to improve the (probably very poor) quality of the primary water. At least several fills and draindowns or a mains flush, and then refill with quality inhibitor. It is surprising how long a boiler can run on borrowed time if looked after, if you're lucky!

 

[Dave18183]

I think Ric2013 has got what happened spot on.

I’m glad we have all got to the bottom of it and I really appreciate eveyone help. Cheers guys

———————

I have a quote for replacing the cylinder, and a power flush which I might consider but funds are tight. Does this seem reasonable?

it is not replacing for another vaillant but a good quality cyclinder.

“
Please find below our costs for above works,

• Drain, decommission and remove existing Vaillant cylinder.
• Install new Main 150 Litre unvented cylinder.
• Install new unvented safety controls including TPRV, PRV, 3bar safety set, expansion vessel.
• Alter existing pipe work and 3 way valve to suit new cylinder.
• Alter wiring of system in airing cupboard to suit new cylinder.
• Install new 2 port safety zone valve.
• Inhibit system.
• Test and commission to manufactures instructions.
• Waste removed from site.

£1008.11 + VAT

• Powerfush 13 radiator system using Kamco FX2 chemicals then system neutraliser, Then test and re-inhibit system.

£450 + VAT
”

 

[John.g]

Only query is why a 3 bar PRV, this PRV is I think normally set 1 bar lower than the TPRV which I would expect set to 7 bar

 

[Dave18183]

Only query is why a 3 bar PRV, this PRV is I think normally set 1 bar lower than the TPRV which I would expect set to 7 bar

Ok thank. I will query it. I was more querying price. There is a fair fee plumbers on here

 

[SJB060685]

Without revealing too much about it yes the PRV should be six bar. The combined temperature and pressure relief is 90-95°c and 7 bar.

 

[SJB060685]

Ok thank. I will query it. I was more querying price. There is a fair fee plumbers on here

That's a reasonable price for materials and labour.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

New heating expansion and safety set ?