Grant euroflame 50/70 oil boiler failing to fire

[andrewjeffs]

I have been having trouble with this boiler ever since it was installed due to two rogue plumbers never setting it up correct.
However last year,and with a well reccomended plumber the boiler worked fine for 12 months.
But now the boiler stopped working a few days before it was due to be seviced,the pump runs but the boiler will not fire.
The plumber came,serviced the boiler,and it seemed to be ok...for a day,again pump runs but wont fire.
Plumber came again,could find no faults,and again ran for one day,then refuses to fire.

If i reset the boiler,it will fire for a few seconds then shuts off.

The tank has just been filled with oil,the burner is a riello rdb1 50/70sh type 484t50.

The boiler always seems to stop working when it gets close to winter temperatures.

Any help i can pass on to the plumber would be a great help,i am panicing a bit, as winter is approaching, and no heating..again.

 

[ecowarm]

How low filling did the tank get before refilling? it may be air in the oil pipe work or the filling of the tank may have disturbed dirt from the bottom of the tank.

 

[andrewjeffs]

How low filling did the tank get before refilling? it may be air in the oil pipe work or the filling of the tank may have disturbed dirt from the bottom of the tank.

It did run right out,but when the boiler was serviced he changed the jet nozzle.
Wouldnt that be the area the dirt would clog if it was that?

The boiler did run after the tank was refilled.

 

[kimbo]

Always dificult to diagnose without actually being there. Assuming that your guy checked the fuel supply and set the oil pressure and co2 I would go for the photocell, it is easy to check the photocell. If you say the boiler wont start now, if you disconnect the photocell (RDB) or remove it if the burner is a mectron (R40), when you try to start it it will go through the sequence of pre purge etc, when the photocell checks for light the second time it wont be able to detect it so the burner will fire and after a few seconds it will go to lockout, if this happens the photocell is faulty, you can only check this one if it wont start at all.
You say the pump runs and the boiler goes out after a few seconds, this is probably the fan starting up but not actually firing, if it does fire but goes to lockout it could still be the photocell but you will be only able to check it in this case by replacing it.

 

[Best]

If dirt got into oil line then it would clog to some extent oil filter at pipe + oil filter in oil pump + fire valves & everything else. If it is a decent paper element filter ( at tank ) then hopefully it will only be dirty. The 50/70 euroflame is very likely not to start in cold weather if it hasn't been set properly. The CO2 should be set correctly. Make sure the bloke working on it knows what he is doing & uses test equipment. Also he has to be oftec qualified. Oil pumps & motor condensers are what gives trouble on RDB burners.

 

[ecowarm]

Sounds like it could be air and needs bleeding

 

[Best]

I should have mentioned the photocell , as Kimbo has said, needs to be clean, but should have been done when the plumber looked at it. I think that you should really get an experienced oil engineer if you can find one, as it should be an obvious problem, easily fixed.

 

[kimbo]

The plumber has been and seviced it so we have to assume if he has done his job properly he would have checked all the filters and bled any oil out of the oil line, set the pressure and CO2. If he hasnt done any of these things he hasnt serviced it and we would need to go back to basics.

 

[Best]

The plumber has been and seviced it so we have to assume if he has done his job properly he would have checked all the filters and bled any oil out of the oil line, set the pressure and CO2. If he hasnt done any of these things he hasnt serviced it and we would need to go back to basics.

Thats always the issue - did the guy actually do a service & proper check on it all? If he did, then providing the motor turns when an attempt is made to start boiler, then it is most likely either not set up properly or oil pump faulty. If too much air going into burner then it may not start in cold weather.

 

[andrewjeffs]

Thats always the issue - did the guy actually do a service & proper check on it all? If he did, then providing the motor turns when an attempt is made to start boiler, then it is most likely either not set up properly or oil pump faulty. If too much air going into burner then it may not start in cold weather.

This guy is supposed to be good with oil burners.
He has given me a service sheet with a whole run down of figures from the various tests he has made.

 

[dontknowitall]

There have been issues with KBB fire valves, especially since last winter. Have you got one? (Google images if you're not sure.)

Could be fuel starvation caused by a faulty valve.

 

[andrewjeffs]

There have been issues with KBB fire valves, especially since last winter. Have you got one? (Google images if you're not sure.)

Could be fuel starvation caused by a faulty valve.

Yes i do have one.If its faulty would the plastic bit at the bottom pop out,or is it a internal fault.

 

[Best]

If the guy is good at his job, then he should have checked the flow of oil through the KBB valve. Obviously the fault can be almost anything, & even the best & most experienced of us will sometimes get an intermittent fault that we don't sort straight away. Assuming all the obvious is ok, & that the CO2 is high - about 12%, then I would always be suspicious of Riello oil pump. If they are carefully opened by an engineer, often they are damaged inside. Capacitors are often failing intermittently, but that would make the motor not turn at all at times. A good engineer will keep spares, so he would have the option of trying a new control box ( for example) if he wanted to test.

 

[dontknowitall]

When working properly the button moves stiffly and pops in and out when moved. To set (and open oil line) it has to be pushed in. If it's floppy or not moving properly it might well be partially blocking the oil supply which would cause the boiler to lockout.

I'm not saying it's definitely the fire valve but might be worth a look.

 

[Best]

Yes i do have one.If its faulty would the plastic bit at the bottom pop out,or is it a internal fault.

Can have either fault, - button out is valve off because it has sensed heat, so doing it's job & can be reset when probe cool, or - internal fault, like blocked. But the engineer will have checked for flow in entire oil line if he did it properly. Even a basic test is only just running oil out of oil hose.

 

[andrewjeffs]

I am sure the boiler is set up correctly,as i said the guy did it 12 months ago and it ran faultless all through the year after many years of being set up wrong
by so called experts in oil boilers.This guy told me the settings were all over the place,and the boiler has never been serviced correctly.

It does seem to be the cold when the issues have occured in the past.

It has always been the same fault with this boiler,pump appears to be running,be wont fire,or trys to fire.

 

[Best]

He sounds like he is a proper guy. One thing I should mention is that if a boiler motor turns on, it may be turning the oil pump as normal but the boiler doesn't start & goes to lockout. This can be because the oil pump is broken inside & not actually working the odd time. Mainly on oil pumps on Riello burners like the RDB.

 

[kimbo]

All the faults mentioned may be the cause but you cant make guesses you have to go back to basics, Identify what caused the problem in the first place and that may indicate the cause. Be methodical, prove you have fuel to the burner that will negate any issues with filters or fire valves etc. Check the pump pressure, if you have sufficient pressure then it is not the oil pump or drive dog. By doing these kind of checks you will be left with a small amount of problems it could be, these are all best checked by someone who has the right equipment and knowledge.
Trial and error is not a very good approach.

 

[Best]

All the faults mentioned may be the cause but you cant make guesses you have to go back to basics, Identify what caused the problem in the first place and that may indicate the cause. Be methodical, prove you have fuel to the burner that will negate any issues with filters or fire valves etc. Check the pump pressure, if you have sufficient pressure then it is not the oil pump or drive dog. By doing these kind of checks you will be left with a small amount of problems it could be, these are all best checked by someone who has the right equipment and knowledge.
Trial and error is not a very good approach.

I agree Kimbo, that trial & error not the best way, but what would you do if you travel miles to a boiler & everything is spot on as far as you can test? I would then change what my experience tells me is the most likely. Nearly always works & saves a call back. I disagree, however, about checking the oil pump pressure, especially Riellos, as this only proves it is working ok when you test it. If it is partly broken inside the pump, then it can jam or slip at anytime.

 

[kimbo]

I agree best but as I understand it the boiler is not working now. As you say it could be the pump but then again it could be a flat spot on the motor bearings etc . Now it won't go it should be easy for a good engineer.

 

[andrewjeffs]

I agree best but as I understand it the boiler is not working now. As you say it could be the pump but then again it could be a flat spot on the motor bearings etc . Now it won't go it should be easy for a good engineer.

Had a look at the boiler this evening and the lock out buttton was lit.
Reset the boiler and it has run for a hour without cutting out.
Will see if it fires in the morning on automatic timer.

 

[Best]

Worn oil pump + drive will often cause Riello burner to lockout intermittently, but capacitor ( which is only a few pounds) can do same. On Riello burners,( old & new types) the solenoid rarely gives trouble, the photo cell is very reliable also. Control boxes occasionally are faulty. Motor bearings can need changed if any noise from them or if they seize up. Removing the oil pump & opening it carefully is easy for an engineer to prove it's worn. Often the drive pin is cut into the first gear, showing out of line with the cut outs in the gear.

 

[andrewjeffs]

Had a look at the boiler this evening and the lock out buttton was lit.
Reset the boiler and it has run for a hour without cutting out.
Will see if it fires in the morning on automatic timer.

It did not fire this morning on automatic timer.
when i looked at the boiler,it has gone into lockout again.

Reset it again this afternoon,ran for 10 mins interminantly then locked out again.

 

[Best]

If your engineer has the parts for the RDB burner, as he should have, then it will be a quick fix if the burner is hardly going. Most parts are very easy to change - only the motor is sometimes not so easy. Can't see why the engineer didn't check oil pump first, if all obvious is ok.

 

[andrewjeffs]

Ok sat outside for a hour today watching what the boiler is doing.
After resetting the locked out boiler,the boiler fired and ran first time for 15 mins smoothly.

Then the boiler stops and takes 5-10 mins to refire,but now it is struggling to fire.
It fires,but immediatly stops,and continues to do this 3 or 4 times,
but then fires up again, and runs for 15 mins smoothly.

It repeats this exact sequence 7 or 8 times before finally going into lock-out..

 

[mitchellplumber]

If he was that good, You wouldn't be on here looking for answers... Your plumber would have them ;0)

 

[WHPES]

Go onto the OFTEC website and pick someone else for a fresh pair of eyes

 

[andrewjeffs]

If he was that good, You wouldn't be on here looking for answers... Your plumber would have them ;0)

So the point of this website is....

 

[Best]

Ok sat outside for a hour today watching what the boiler is doing.
After resetting the locked out boiler,the boiler fired and ran first time for 15 mins smoothly.

Then the boiler stops and takes 5-10 mins to refire,but now it is struggling to fire.
It fires,but immediatly stops,and continues to do this 3 or 4 times,
but then fires up again, and runs for 15 mins smoothly.

It repeats this exact sequence 7 or 8 times before finally going into lock-out..

That can mean almost anything. Control boxes, photocells & solenoids on all burners can cause intermittent trouble, but , as i have already said, check the oil pump. If it is 10 yr old, then it is very old for a Riello pump as they are mainly what goes on those burners. I often carry one in from my van with my tools, as nearly always the problem. No point you waiting till winter hits hard, get it sorted with someone who knows what they are doing.

 

[kimbo]

I dont quite know what you are after all the problems that it could be have been, have already been mentioned, no one can categorically say it is anyone of those things without personally testing certain things. You cannot reliably diagnose a problem from sitting at a computer screen. There are some engineers that are extremely good and there are some that are good. I personally dont like to be beaten and I havent been yet, I would be very dissappointed if I could not get a burner going or at least reliably diagnose the fault after one or two visits if the problem is intermittent. I carry about £2000.00p of parts in my van so most parts can be tested on the same visit. Get another engineer around.

 

[andrewjeffs]

I dont quite know what you are after all the problems that it could be have been, have already been mentioned, no one can categorically say it is anyone of those things without personally testing certain things. You cannot reliably diagnose a problem from sitting at a computer screen. There are some engineers that are extremely good and there are some that are good. I personally dont like to be beaten and I havent been yet, I would be very dissappointed if I could not get a burner going or at least reliably diagnose the fault after one or two visits if the problem is intermittent. I carry about £2000.00p of parts in my van so most parts can be tested on the same visit. Get another engineer around.

I am trying to add as much detail regarding the bloody problem a i can,i am not a engineer and the 3 previous so called engineers have also fkd it up,so you tell me who do i try next????This guy is oftec registered and fully recommended
I live in a rural area so engineers are not exactly abundant.
I am worried that my family are once again going to have no heating again,thats why i am sitting at a computer screen,trying to get information from experts to possibly help with a diagnosis.
You are talking like a average punter should know whats hes talking about..i know nothing about plumbing,i am i roofer trying to get some ideas of were to go next.

You 2 may be the dogs blx,but odviously other engineers are not,which may include the next so called expert that has a look.

 

[dontknowitall]

Homeowners Zone | Grant UK

 

[dontknowitall]

Try the above link. They'll probably be more expensive than your local chappies but they only service Grant boilers and will have the backup of their manufacturers.

I hope I'm not one of those dogs balls ...

 

[Best]

I am not trying to be funny, but how much money do you want to spend? Or how much money is the engineer going to charge you? I guess that is part of the problem & I don't blame you for not wanting to spend all you have. If you can afford it, you could have a brand new burner for less than some engineers would charge for repairs. But you will need it installed/commissioned. If I was a local, I would sort it no problem. If it was my burner i would repair it unless it was very old or in very bad condition.There are about 6 main parts to your burner, so it's not rocket science, you probably haven't a top boiler guy - oftec trained means nothing much, but experience is way ahead. I have just fixed another one of those burners today, - oil pump broken as usual. This time it was totally gone, so didn't have to think before renewing it. 5min job.

 

[kimbo]

What part of the country are you in