Geberit 110.700 series won't flush on small flush button

[Ric2013]

Hi,

My aunt asked me to have a look at her Geberit cistern which recently has suddenly stopped flushing on the short flush button. Long flush works normally as far as I can tell.

This is the flush mechanism (the label suggests PN 7074-98) , please excuse the mess:

Took the whole thing apart. Nothing obviously broken or worn, except that there are two nibs on the top of that blue weight that do not appear to have anything to engage into, which suggests a part has become detached and gone down the flush pipe. Perhaps a spring has come loose? Although it seems unlikely a spring would be involved and there are no corrosion marks that suggest any metals were present.

I'm assuming the short flush blue rod should lift the flush washer to initiate the flush and that the blue weight should then somehow bear onto the main float to interrupt the flush at a certain point whereas, in full flush mode, the white rod is lifted, the blue weight is not lifted and hence the flush washer is floated for a longer period.

The blue actuating rod is lifting the blue weight but is not lifting the white rod or flush washer at all and I cannot really understand how the mechanism is supposed to work.

The obvious answer is to replace the mechanism. Since I don't have access to parts, that means calling another plumber, based locally, who has access to parts. The frustrating thing is that I lose the opportunity to compare the new and old mechanisms to work out what the difference between the two is. To me, who likes to be be able to identify and understand faults, even when the answer ends up being to replace the whole assembly, this is a source of frustration.

Anyone come across this before, and is it a common fault?

 

[Julie Street]

Hi,

My aunt asked me to have a look at her Geberit cistern which recently has suddenly stopped flushing on the short flush button. Long flush works normally as far as I can tell.

This is the flush mechanism (the label suggests PN 7074-98) , please excuse the mess:

View attachment 61509

Took the whole thing apart. Nothing obviously broken or worn, except that there are two nibs on the top of that blue weight that do not appear to have anything to engage into, which suggests a part has become detached and gone down the flush pipe. Perhaps a spring has come loose? Although it seems unlikely a spring would be involved and there are no corrosion marks that suggest any metals were present.

I'm assuming the short flush blue rod should lift the flush washer to initiate the flush and that the blue weight should then somehow bear onto the main float to interrupt the flush at a certain point whereas, in full flush mode, the white rod is lifted, the blue weight is not lifted and hence the flush washer is floated for a longer period.

The blue actuating rod is lifting the blue weight but is not lifting the white rod or flush washer at all and I cannot really understand how the mechanism is supposed to work.

The obvious answer is to replace the mechanism. Since I don't have access to parts, that means calling another plumber, based locally, who has access to parts. The frustrating thing is that I lose the opportunity to compare the new and old mechanisms to work out what the difference between the two is. To me, who likes to be be able to identify and understand faults, even when the answer ends up being to replace the whole assembly, this is a source of frustration.

Anyone come across this before, and is it a common fault?

Just get yourself a new mechanism and bung it in:-

Geberit Twinline UP170 8cm Concealed Cistern 110.700.00.2 Spare Parts

1 216 599 00 1 Geberit angle stop valve 1 240 644 00 1 Geberit angle stop valve for concealed cisterns 2 240 233 00 1 Geberit extension set for

www.bathroomspareparts.co.uk

Save yourself a load of messing about.
Geberit....the masters of making simple things as complicated as possible.......

 

[Ric2013]

Hi Julie,

I am currently in Italy and (due to a combination of weird circumstances) not where my business is, but I like to keep my hand in when I can. £26.83 all incl to Italy isn't bad, but local plumbers (who work with Geberit every day of the week) have them in stock, so they will obviously get the job as my aunt isn't going to wait for parts to arrive in the post.

I think you missed the bit about it not being my cistern and the fact that, as a plumber, I have to make the most of every possible opportunity to learn. It isn't messing about - it's free eductation for me - and certainly next time I come across a Geberit, I'll know I can tackle the job alone (today was the first one I've worked on without supervision, so it was great to be able to take my time today).

Replacing the whole mechanism would indeed solve the problem, but if my skill level is to be reduced to replacing and fitting products I don't understand at all, I may as well find myself another job.

 

[cptplumbing]

Hi Julie,

I am currently in Italy and (due to a combination of weird circumstances) not where my business is, but I like to keep my hand in when I can. £26.83 all incl to Italy isn't bad, but local plumbers (who work with Geberit every day of the week) have them in stock, so they will obviously get the job as my aunt isn't going to wait for parts to arrive in the post.

I think you missed the bit about it not being my cistern and the fact that, as a plumber, I have to make the most of every possible opportunity to learn. It isn't messing about - it's free eductation for me - and certainly next time I come across a Geberit, I'll know I can tackle the job alone (today was the first one I've worked on without supervision, so it was great to be able to take my time today).

Replacing the whole mechanism would indeed solve the problem, but if my skill level is to be reduced to replacing and fitting products I don't understand at all, I may as well find myself another job.

I've come across this problem before - it usually happens when the threaded plastic rod (that pulls the loop up when you press the flush button) comes loose over time due to improper installation. Adjusting the threaded rod usually resolves the issue. The fact that the long flush works and the short flush doesn't makes it seem like the problem isn't the flush mech, just an issue with the flush plate that isn't actuating the flush mech correctly. You can usually tell its come loose when theres no pressure on the flush button when you press it lightly.
Could you actuate the short flush by hand when the flush plate was removed?
The fact that you've taken everything apart makes it harder to diagnose. Would be easier to troubleshoot if everything was assembled.

The parts that actuate the flush are small but I've never known them to fall off and get flushed away as you've suggested. There are also no metal parts in the cistern - apart from the isolating valve.

If you need to order parts online, you're better off ordering replacement parts from Italy or Germany.
Postage will be faster (24/48 hours) than ordering from the UK (which will take 3-4 weeks at best).
Almost all plumbing/trade merchants in Italy won't sell to the general public but there are a few who will. I don't know where in Italy you are, but you should be able to find a local supplier. Failing which, spending €80 for a local plumber might be less hassle.

Another thing to mention is that in my experience limescale (of which there is plenty in Italy) doesn't bode well for concealed cisterns, as it tends to seize up the small plastic parts.

Good luck

 

[Ric2013]

I've come across this problem before - it usually happens when the threaded plastic rod (that pulls the loop up when you press the flush button) comes loose over time due to improper installation. Adjusting the threaded rod usually resolves the issue. The fact that the long flush works and the short flush doesn't makes it seem like the problem isn't the flush mech, just an issue with the flush plate that isn't actuating the flush mech correctly. You can usually tell its come loose when theres no pressure on the flush button when you press it lightly.
Could you actuate the short flush by hand when the flush plate was removed?
The fact that you've taken everything apart makes it harder to diagnose. Would be easier to troubleshoot if everything was assembled.

The parts that actuate the flush are small but I've never known them to fall off and get flushed away as you've suggested. There are also no metal parts in the cistern - apart from the isolating valve.

If you need to order parts online, you're better off ordering replacement parts from Italy or Germany.
Postage will be faster (24/48 hours) than ordering from the UK (which will take 3-4 weeks at best).
Almost all plumbing/trade merchants in Italy won't sell to the general public but there are a few who will. I don't know where in Italy you are, but you should be able to find a local supplier. Failing which, spending €80 for a local plumber might be less hassle.

Another thing to mention is that in my experience limescale (of which there is plenty in Italy) doesn't bode well for concealed cisterns, as it tends to seize up the small plastic parts.

Good luck

Cheers, CPT: that's exactly the sort of advice I was after. Unfortunately the threaded rod was (and is - I reassembled everything) actuating the lever that lifts the loop. But the loop isn't opening the flush - it's just lifting that blue weight. So, no, I couldn't actuate the flush by hand. The actuating mechanism at the access panel all looks to be in order and rods are correctly adjusted to 33mm as per diagram on cover.

Limescale absolutely not an issue in this area, as soft water.

The only thing I can think of that I haven't previously mentioned is that there is a white plastic hook on the underside of the blue weight thing that passes through a slot in the white cylinder under the blue weight. It's not entirely clear what this hook is supposed to do - but it does not seem to be worn or broken.

I must say I'm tempted to order the new assembly anyway, just so as to have something to compare with the old mechanism.

 

[Ric2013]

Update. I've ordered the new assembly anyway as I feel a compulsive need to know how it's supposed to work and can't work this out from the old one which... err... doesn't work.

But 48 hours delivery... not in Italy. They're saying 2-3 working days

Will update again when I find the difference between the new and the old one.

 

[Julie Street]

Sorry I didn't realise you wanted to learn how it worked.....Thought you just wanted to get the toilet working asap. Have spent lots of time messing about with those things myself, and sometimes its just quicker and therefore cheaper for the customer to replace the whole thing x

 

[Ben-gee]

Last night went to a non flushing Dudley vantage - disconnected button and replaced with one I had in van, all working again in a couple of minutes.
I said to customer (a retired engineer) “shall we just say it’s fixed and be done with it, or try and work out what was wrong originally?”
Obviously cheaper to let me go home for my tea .

(As I was getting in van he came and asked me for the old one as he thought he might try and dismantle it and see what’s going on - like I said a retired engineer!)

 

[Julie Street]

Last night went to a non flushing Dudley vantage - disconnected button and replaced with one I had in van, all working again in a couple of minutes.
I said to customer (a retired engineer) “shall we just say it’s fixed and be done with it, or try and work out what was wrong originally?”
Obviously cheaper to let me go home for my tea .

(As I was getting in van he came and asked me for the old one as he thought he might try and dismantle it and see what’s going on - like I said a retired engineer!)

Haha, I am an engineer-turned-plumber, so the temptation to "make it work" is one I have to fight-off on a daily basis! My garage is full of stuff that I will investigate "one day when I get time"...........!?!

 

[Ric2013]

Haha, I am an engineer-turned-plumber, so the temptation to "make it work" is one I have to fight-off on a daily basis! My garage is full of stuff that I will investigate "one day when I get time"*********..!?!

I often suspect that 'engineer' is less a job title than a state of mind.

I built a nice new cupboard under the stairs. It currently has a nice washing washing machine in it - in pieces (I have a friend who is going to help me weld up a new stainless drum spider to replace the old pot-meal one that had failed after only 20 years: planned obsolescence?). So I know exactly where you are coming from.

 

[Ben-gee]

We all love tinkering, you just have to know where to draw the line when the customer is paying for your time- easier said than done!

 

[cptplumbing]

Update. I've ordered the new assembly anyway as I feel a compulsive need to know how it's supposed to work and can't work this out from the old one which... err... doesn't work.

But 48 hours delivery... not in Italy. They're saying 2-3 working days

Will update again when I find the difference between the new and the old one.

Much easier ordering online in Italy, no need for a partita IVA.

Just to add I've always had great service from Geberit. They would even send a tech out to troubleshoot any issues on new installs (at no charge). In my opinion they are superior to Valsir, Tece, Grohe et al. and most of the clunky homemade concealed cisterns found on the market which seem to plague most UK properties.

I don't know if you've seen them in Italy, but the Pucci concealed system was the first fully concealed cistern in Italy (circa 1940's) and possibly the world. The cistern is made out of copper sheet and the flush mechanism involves a black rubber ball attached to a string. They work like a charm, not fancy at all but Pucci still manufactures parts for them to this day so they are still being maintained.

 

[Ric2013]

I have a Pucci at 'home' in Italy. It's an amazing system. Best flush valve I've ever known. Mine has a couple of plastic guides (not a dual flush version) rather than a string to guide the ball, but otherwise as you say. They were very very common, but seem to have fallen out of favour in new installations. Local plumbers agree they were always the best. The new Puccis are mostly plastic cisterns, but copper ones are still available and the technical drawings suggest the design hasn't changed much.

They use what is more-or-less a miniature version of a BRE Garston fill valve, but I Jerry-rigged a Torbeck into my father's one many years ago to avoid having to pay Italian prices for spares (the local plumber will sell you spares - at a cost).

The only thing that seems to go wrong is a round rubber outlet seal where the rubber ball sits (in the Pucci, the ball is hard and the valve seat is soft which is the opposite to most flush valves); this spare is not expensive. The last time I changed the outlet seal (which was around 12 years ago), the rubber compound of the new one seemed to be different from the old one (which seemed to be a nitrile rubber which eventually rotted and went crumbly and slimy) and I suspect the new compound will last longer than the previous one.

Pucci have even made a dual flush version. Looking at the Pucci website, this uses a ball on a string, whereas the single flush version has the ball free - but constrained by two vertical plastic tubes (the overflow) instead.

The photo shows 'my' Pucci - in daily use since 1973. The isolation valve seems to have been replaced and original tiles were not available...

 

[Ric2013]

Geberit....the masters of making simple things as complicated as possible.******

Hi Julie,

Top marks for that observation! Geberit actually made an assembly of a design that is inherently weak in order to speed up production and could easily be repaired (improved even) using non-standard components.

Well, the part finally arrived today and it is immediately obvious what the problem was with the old one now.

I mentioned two nibs that didn't engage with anything. Turns out those two nibs weren't actually nibs at all, but the remnants of two much longer tabs which allow the short flush weight to be inserted around the overflow column during manufacture. Once assembled, the unit uses these tabs to allow the short flush weight to apply upward movement via a flange on the overflow column (the full flush column) which in turn starts the flush off.

As the assembly itself is available (but not the individual components), the answer in a professional situation is to replace it - but at least now I know what was wrong!

I attach two photos of the new assembly showing the tabs that were missing on the existing assembly.