Gas Installers Opinions On a Gas Fire Please

[centralheatking]

I surveyed a property today. There is an old valour 4 radiant gas fire in the sitting room. I am concerned because it is certain that the room is being used as a permenant bedroom for a terminally ill family member. It’s beyond my remit but the lady has this fire on 24/7 when she is awake and asleep. What should the family be looking for.
Is it illegal, not advisable can’t see any permenant open vents to outside or an oxydepletion device. I will report your views to the agent directly. Law or opinions are fine. Centralheatking

 

[OffshoreGas]

You can only fit a room sealed appliance in sleeping accommodation. A radiant fire would be classed as open flued.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/landlords/180116-non-room-sealed-gas-appliances-located-in-sleeping-accommodation.pdf

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Turn off and run the ch more effective and efficient in the long run

 

[OffshoreGas]

Turn off and run the ch more effective and efficient in the long run

Completely agree but still a difficult situation where that’s the only source of heat.

 

[OffshoreGas]

@centralheatking i take that back, according to that link, bottom of page 1 you actually can fit a non closed glue appliance if it has a vitiation device fitted.

 

[centralheatking]

@centralheatking i take that back, according to that link, bottom of page 1 you actually can fit a non closed glue appliance if it has a vitiation device fitted.

What’s a vitiating device please thanks for the update Centralheatking

 

[OffshoreGas]

What’s a vitiating device please thanks for the update Centralheatking

It’s a means of measuring the build up of combustion products in the air. On an old appliance a gadget monitors the pilot light, it the flame cools due to lack of oxygen the gas is isolated.

 

[king of pipes]

I wouldnt be happy CHK i would be advising removal of the fire and replacing with another heat source . Kop

 

[centralheatking]

I wouldnt be happy CHK i would be advising removal of the fire and replacing with another heat source . Kop

Cheers KOP that’s exactly what I am going to do first thing Friday morning in a call to the agent and the tennant. Technically it’s beyond my full remit but they will listen as I will not leave the agent any choice. I like to sleep at night Centralheatking

 

[OffshoreGas]

I wouldnt be happy CHK i would be advising removal of the fire and replacing with another heat source . Kop

Completely agree, I always thought it was classed as ID to have an open flued appliance in a bedroom.

I’d always try to talk anyone out of having any sort of fire as they seem like inefficient death traps to me.

 

[king of pipes]

I had a similar scenario a couple of year ago lady of the house had a fall broke her hip so had to have a bed downstairs gas fire and back boiler unit in the room vent blocked up , i had already upgraded the heating and hotwater and redone the bathroom the family wanted to leave the fire i said no way , even made em replace the gas cooker that was faulty to , within 6 months the poor old girl was in a home bless her. Kop

 

[centralheatking]

Update, looks like things are sorted. The tennant is getting a visit from a local GSR outfit FOC this afternoon after a call and an explanation of the circumstances. The agents got the second call and
offered to log it and let the landlord know in due course....so their nose was put out of joint when I explained matters were already in hand as it was a safety issue and they can collect a copy of the GSR report from the property and that will be binding Centralheatking

 

[rpm]

I surveyed a property today. There is an old valour 4 radiant gas fire in the sitting room. I am concerned because it is certain that the room is being used as a permenant bedroom for a terminally ill family member. It’s beyond my remit but the lady has this fire on 24/7 when she is awake and asleep. What should the family be looking for.
Is it illegal, not advisable can’t see any permenant open vents to outside or an oxydepletion device. I will report your views to the agent directly. Law or opinions are fine. Centralheatking

What sort of survey were you there to carry out?

 

[centralheatking]

What sort of survey were you there to carry out?

I do surveys of condition of buy to lets, rentals, change overs, inventory, and also meet the bailiffs when people have to be evicted, MOD property and drive by. I am fully qualified but just do part time when it all gets too busy for a friend or when he goes on holiday. I just fit it round my other business
which is in plumbing and heating design. It’s ideal for semi retired ..but I am not.
It’s generally clean and quite straightfwds. Centralheatking

 

[Last Plumber]

If it is below 14Kw gross input, in safe working order and has a vitiation device fitted, I would recommend a CO alarm and leave it as it is.

 

[centralheatking]

If it is below 14Kw gross input, in safe working order and has a vitiation device fitted, I would recommend a CO alarm and leave it as it is.

What’s a vitiation device ...oxy depletion ? Centralheatking

 

[ShaunCorbs]

What’s a vitiation device ...oxy depletion ? Centralheatking

yes same thing keeps an eye on theo2

 

[Last Plumber]

What’s a vitiation device ...oxy depletion ? Centralheatking

Yes. It is normally something like an oxy-pilot or on some back boiler units there was a tube taken from the flue hood to the pilot air intake. Whichever way it is done the main aim is that if the appliance starts to spill POC's (products of combustion) then the pilot (normally) would be starved of oxygen, struggle to stay alight and so search for it. That in turn causes the flame to lift off the sensing device - be it a thermocouple/ionisation probe etc - and either break the flow of electrons or allow the thermocouple to cool and ultimately stop the gas supply and leave the appliance in a state where it requires manual reset/re-lighting.
A lot of older appliances where manufactured without such devices and if this is one of those then obviously permission should be sought to make it safe. If there is a possibility that the room will return to a living room etc, then it could be temporarily made safe i.e. left in situ but disconnected from the gas supply, warning notice attached and warning/advice note signed and kept.

 

[OffshoreGas]

If it is below 14Kw gross input, in safe working order and has a vitiation device fitted, I would recommend a CO alarm and leave it as it is.

I know legally you can but I’d certainly try and talk them in to having it capped off.

 

[Last Plumber]

I know legally you can but I’d certainly try and talk them in to having it capped off.

If an appliance works safely, meets relevant standards and regulations, why would you try and convince someone not to use it? More to the point, what right would you have?

 

[OffshoreGas]

If an appliance works safely, meets relevant standards and regulations, why would you try and convince someone not to use it? More to the point, what right would you have?

Because in my opinion there are much safer more efficient ways to heat a space. I’ve come across plenty where he safety devices had failed.

If they were introduced today do you think they would be allowed?

 

[centralheatking]

If an appliance works safely, meets relevant standards and regulations, why would you try and convince someone not to use it? More to the point, what right would you have?

I was Corgi, Acops, Acts with up to 20 fitters until late 90s. I would not fit a gas cooker in a sitting room old gas fires like the one which has now been removed and early Dfe are just the same. I advise landlords to pull out all gas appliances in rentals. Maybe leave combi in if it’s a house rental, flats and hmo lecky only it’s safer and less annual fees. My holiday lets are all solar and electricity and the energy is included in the tariff.. Centralheatking

 

[Last Plumber]

Because in my opinion there are much safer more efficient ways to heat a space. I’ve come across plenty where he safety devices had failed.

If they were introduced today do you think they would be allowed?

There are safer ways to heat space, you are quite right.

They are still manufactured, sold and installed today so I don't really understand why you ask that?

I have never seen a vitiation device on an open flu space heater fail 'unsafe'.

Like I said, if something is safe and within rules and regs you don't have to like it or use/install it yourself but we also have no place persuading the owner/end user to part with something that is deemed safe just because of your own personal dislikes.

There are lots of things in this industry that cause alarm, most things I have encountered have been caused by incompetence, poor workmanship or lack of service, inspection and maintenance.

 

[centralheatking]

There are safer ways to heat space, you are quite right.

They are still manufactured, sold and installed today so I don't really understand why you ask that?

I have never seen a vitiation device on an open flu space heater fail 'unsafe'.

Like I said, if something is safe and within rules and regs you don't have to like it or use/install it yourself but we also have no place persuading the owner/end user to part with something that is deemed safe just because of your own personal dislikes.

There are lots of things in this industry that cause alarm, most things I have encountered have been caused by incompetence, poor workmanship or lack of service, inspection and maintenance.

I tend to work on the Friday afternoon, Monday morning hangover principle. Expecting people to be at the top of their game always is unrealistic. So my colleagues and I try to design things for production and installation that are not too demanding. Same applies to units in people’s homes they are rarely maintained properly or serviced, the gone wrong principle applies. Regulations GSR or Wras are the ideal, in the real world it’s best to be pragmatic and limit the potential for error. Centralheatking