Football Changing Rooms

[FootyChairman]

Hi all,
I'm searching for some advice about replacing a shower pump that supplies 8 showers (4 in each room) in two football changing rooms. The setup is a hot water cylinder type with a positive head, there is an adjustable hot/cold water mixer before the pump. The current pump is a Monsoon Extra S1.4 bar which was just about adequate to supply the 8 showers, if we were looking for improved showers performance would we be looking for a higher flow rate or more pressure?

 

[Rob Foster]

In order to specify an improvement then it would be essential if we were to know what the current performance is. After that well that world opens up . A simple resume if the lifestyle of this shower area is essential. Is it all at full,tilt for 10 mins or maybe not all are always used , recovery time is essential between games Rob Foster aka centralheatking

 

[FootyChairman]

With the old set-up (6 shower heads) the performance was good, but adding the 7th and 8th heads resulted in reduced performance from all heads. I'd probably say that the current pump is the minimum that we need but I don't know whether it's improved flow or pressure that we need?

 

[Riley]

I’d be looking at a better stored water solution a pump is not ideal for that number of shower heads. You should be looking at a properly specced unvented cylinder(s)

 

[Rob Foster]

Stored water solution here would be good with small solar input as it would spend loads of the week building up heat and doing a passive heat contribution to the shower block Chking

 

[rpm]

Small non league club here guys, most likely just getting by, think minimum costs.

 

[FootyChairman]

Thanks guys, yes looking at minimum cost at the moment. But one day we might be looking to build new changing rooms so the knowledge of the best type of system for the future build is definitely useful.

 

[Welder]

With the old set-up (6 shower heads) the performance was good, but adding the 7th and 8th heads resulted in reduced performance from all heads. I'd probably say that the current pump is the minimum that we need but I don't know whether it's improved flow or pressure that we need?

Interesting choice of word 'good'. In reality as useful as a chocolate fireguard

Let's get practical.

Firstly, turn on 6 showers ONLY. Put a 5L bucket under ONE head and measure the time it takes to fill it to exactly 5L.

Secondly turn on the other two and do the same exercise.

What you will then have is a benchmark. IF, for example, one had a flow rate of 8 litres per minute when 'good' and 6 litres per minute when 'poor' then one might try flow reducers or orifice plates in the supply to each shower set at say 7 litres per min. You would not be using an appreciable difference in water but it would be more balanced and probably acceptable having spent peanuts.

Balancing them is vital anyway so at the very least you need to place flow restrictors in each to ensure you do not waste water & energy hence money. Over time people also become conditioned to a set flow rate and they will not fluctuate anywhere near as far as they must do currently.

EDIT:
https://www.robertpearson.co.uk/robertpearson/images/Flow_Regulators_Latest.pdf

 

[Chuck]

If minimum cost is key, it might be worth looking at changing the type of shower head to one that's designed for a lower flow rate than the current ones, i.e. fewer or smaller holes.

 

[Chalked]

Ive done 2 small football clubs in my time.
First was done on a budget. With the club committee specifying ( with help from players that were tradesmen). This had a 300 litre open vent cylinder. Plenty of cold water storage and a grundfoss MQ pump. It fed 10 showers in away and home. And one for the officials. So 21 heads. All had push timers and one communal mixer for each team.
I got seriously moand at because despite all that looking good, you have to realise that that all want a shower at once! So each had a combined flow rate of a trickle! And if they were in for more than 5 mins, the hot water ran out.
On the second one. I put in two dab esybox booster sets, each fed by a 1inch solenoid ball valve that was fed by a 35mm water main.
This fed two 1 inch Mira commercial mixers and connected to 24 infrared sensing timers with fixed shower heads. These were restricted to 9 litres a min. Hot water was provided by a 500 litre pressurised cylinder, heated by a 50kw vaillant boiler.
I have had no complaints in the three years since it was fitted.

But....it cost nearly £30,000 just for the gear and plumbing.

 

[oz-plumber]

You could always go the Government Grant route - as long as its Solar.

Why not put in an application form and see how you go.

 

[FootyChairman]

Interesting choice of word 'good'. In reality as useful as a chocolate fireguard

Let's get practical.

Firstly, turn on 6 showers ONLY. Put a 5L bucket under ONE head and measure the time it takes to fill it to exactly 5L.

Secondly turn on the other two and do the same exercise.

What you will then have is a benchmark. IF, for example, one had a flow rate of 8 litres per minute when 'good' and 6 litres per minute when 'poor' then one might try flow reducers or orifice plates in the supply to each shower set at say 7 litres per min. You would not be using an appreciable difference in water but it would be more balanced and probably acceptable having spent peanuts.

Balancing them is vital anyway so at the very least you need to place flow restrictors in each to ensure you do not waste water & energy hence money. Over time people also become conditioned to a set flow rate and they will not fluctuate anywhere near as far as they must do currently.

EDIT:
https://www.robertpearson.co.uk/robertpearson/images/Flow_Regulators_Latest.pdf

The problem we currently have is that the pump isn’t working so I need to buy a replacement before we can measure flow rates. I was trying to avoid buying like for likeand then ending up with a pump that isn’t man enough. The current pump is apparently good enough for 120l/min which sounds sufficient for 8 showers if we fit restrictors to 7 or 8 l/min for each shower. The local plumbers merchant reckons that we need more pressure, but I’m not convinced.

 

[Rob Foster]

8 litres per min in this instance is quite sufficient in my opinion

 

[Last Plumber]

There is more to this than pump pressure and shower heads.

It really needs advice from a Commercial Plumber with eyes on the job and experience, (even though it's a relatively small installation).

How far is the run from the Hot Water Storage to the Showers?
Is it a fairly straight run or many changes of direction?
What is the Size of the supply pipe to the showers?
What type of Shower valves are they and what size?
The pump you mentioned, is a Single, is that pumping mixed water?
The frictional losses in the run along with the flow required will reduce the pressure the pump delivers.

How is the cold supplied?
What temperature is the Hot water stored at?
What type of mixer valve is before the pump and what size is that?

All these things add up to the answers you need. I realise that you are on a budget but there is no point throwing that away on guess work in my opinion.

 

[FootyChairman]

There is more to this than pump pressure and shower heads.

It really needs advice from a Commercial Plumber with eyes on the job and experience, (even though it's a relatively small installation).

How far is the run from the Hot Water Storage to the Showers?
Is it a fairly straight run or many changes of direction?
What is the Size of the supply pipe to the showers?
What type of Shower valves are they and what size?
The pump you mentioned, is a Single, is that pumping mixed water?
The frictional losses in the run along with the flow required will reduce the pressure the pump delivers.

How is the cold supplied?
What temperature is the Hot water stored at?
What type of mixer valve is before the pump and what size is that?

All these things add up to the answers you need. I realise that you are on a budget but there is no point throwing that away on guess work in my opinion.

This is some great input. Thank you.
I’m trying to make the best of an old system. Yes it is pumping mixed water.
Excuse my terminology, the hot water comes from a large cylinder with two Emerson heaters in it, there is two black plastic tanks above this that are filled by mains supply. The cold is straight from the main supply, or is that what the two black tanks are for? The water comes in and travels approximately 7metres through 22mm pipes to the mixer valve, this is adjustable by a large knob on the front, the water leaves this valve and goes to the pump which is approx 1.5m below the mixer and a metre to the right, the water exits the pump for approx 1/2m to a 90 degree bend, then vertically up for approx 1/2m where it splits left and right (at 90 degrees) then travels approx 2-3 m to each changing room horizontally, there’s another 90 degree bend and then each shower spurs of this vertically about a metre via a push button to a shower head.

I’ll see if I can get some more answers later on today or maybe tomorrow evening.

 

[Last Plumber]

This is some great input. Thank you.
I’m trying to make the best of an old system. Yes it is pumping mixed water.
Excuse my terminology, the hot water comes from a large cylinder with two Emerson heaters in it, there is two black plastic tanks above this that are filled by mains supply. The cold is straight from the main supply, or is that what the two black tanks are for? The water comes in and travels approximately 7metres through 22mm pipes to the mixer valve, this is adjustable by a large knob on the front, the water leaves this valve and goes to the pump which is approx 1.5m below the mixer and a metre to the right, the water exits the pump for approx 1/2m to a 90 degree bend, then vertically up for approx 1/2m where it splits left and right (at 90 degrees) then travels approx 2-3 m to each changing room horizontally, there’s another 90 degree bend and then each shower spurs of this vertically about a metre via a push button to a shower head.

I’ll see if I can get some more answers later on today or maybe tomorrow evening.

What size from Mixer to pump and pump to tee where the two sides separate?
Are the shower valve branches in 15mm with 15mm valves?

 

[JULIE FISK]

I am a Trustee with a Football Club. We have 42 teams and only two changing rooms so looking to add a further two, each with 3 showers plus a disability shower in each, and 3 toilets.
Is this a job you could undertake/be interested in?