Flue close to non - opening window

[leelister6]

Customer wants a boiler fitting in a new extension but the flue will be coming through the wall within approx 100mm of the kitchen window. Told them it should be ok as long as the window is of the sealed non opening type. Am I right? Thanks

 

[Reg Man]

Not so. Remembering a court case, relating to a CO incident in a hotel in Newquay some years ago, when the installer was prosecuted for this very situation.

 

[johnnyplumb]

Not so. Remembering a court case, relating to a CO incident in a hotel in Newquay some years ago, when the installer was prosecuted for this very situation.

a nods as guid as a wink tae a blind horse

 

[kimbo]

As I understand it is ok if its a non opening window. The newquay incident wad an opening window that had been screwed shut and domeone later took the screws out

 

[Destroyer2813]

What happens when a window fitter comes along and changes the non opening to opening then

 

[johnnyplumb]

Customer wants a boiler fitting in a new extension but the flue will be coming through the wall within approx 100mm of the kitchen window. Told them it should be ok as long as the window is of the sealed non opening type. Am I right? Thanks

150mm min mate for structural reasons

 

[Reg Man]

As I understand it is ok if its a non opening window. The newquay incident wad an opening window that had been screwed shut and domeone later took the screws out

Part of a report in Cornwall news.

"There is no dispute that carbon monoxide poisoning caused the death of Mr Jackson."
Mr Fitton said Mingo told a colleague to hammer two two-inch nails through the bathroom window when the pipe was installed in 2005, preventing it from opening as a solution to stop carbon monoxide being pumped into the room.
According to one of Mingo's colleagues, the defendant was "making his instructions up as he went along".
Hodge, said Mr Fitton, later agreed the boiler safe for use.
Mr Fitton added: "There is no documentation that Mr Mingo or Mr Hodge told the hotel of what they had done or the necessity of doing it."
Subsequently, when the hotel replaced its windows during a refurbishment in 2007, the new window could be fully opened.


Read more: Hotel death, faulty boiler | manslaughter charges | Jonathan Mingo & Phillip Hodge | Great Western Hotel, Newquay | Frederick Jackson death | Western Morning News | This is Cornwall
They were found guilty. So by precedent of the law, it must be illegal.

 

[Deleted member 32524]

As I understand it a non- openable window is fine. If it were changed at a later date then after a room co test you may be able to mark it as NCS as long as co does not go over 10ppm. However, this is not that sound as on a different day yuo may get a different result.


No other location the boiler could go to eradicate any future probs?

 

[leelister6]

Been in touch with Gas safe and it is indeed 150mm. Customer was insisting it went there but have explained the problems and suggested an alternative location. Brick wall and head will be getting aquainted again methinks!

 

[AWheating]

You can not drill your flue hole within 150mm of a opening in the buildings wall structure (window or door) due to it effecting the structual strength of the wall.

as for being close to a non openable window, i see no problem, if a window fitter changes the window then he/she has broken the gas regulations. Just take a picture and put something it writing to cover yourself.

or fit a plume kit

 

[buckley plumb]

As I understand it a non- openable window is fine. If it were changed at a later date then after a room co test you may be able to mark it as NCS as long as co does not go over 10ppm. However, this is not that sound as on a different day yuo may get a different result.


No other location the boiler could go to eradicate any future probs?

gas safe told me this too. 150mm for building structure not gas issue. they told me if window fitter changed then its his fault. also called them on a balnced flue that was 200mm from door opening was told analyse the room with door open and if no trace of poc then its ntcs as its been like that from day one .

 

[lame plumber]

why not keep it simple and no less than 300mm at anytime, that way your bum is always covered, custard wont know any different anyhow

 

[Reg Man]

I am sticking with post 7. Why put your self in that situation?

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

I am sticking with post 7. Why put your self in that situation?

Because there comes a time when things just need doing and if you fit to regs i.e 150mm away from an un-opening window, youve covered your backside

 

[Reg Man]

Because there comes a time when things just need doing and if you fit to regs i.e 150mm away from an un-opening window, youve covered your backside

Ok that's good. exactly what Mr Hodge and Mr Mingo told the court before they were sent down.

 

[Killy Bing]

if it was 150mm to a non opening window I would still fit a plume kit to cover myself.

 

[Reg Man]

Because there comes a time when things just need doing and if you fit to regs i.e 150mm away from an un-opening window, youve covered your backside

150mm structural to the fabric of the building only, not for re-entry of POC.

 

[buckley plumb]

150mm structural to the fabric of the building only, not for re-entry of POC.

a none opening window is not an opening into building that's what gas safe said - I am with you if possible I go 300mm but there are the odd occasions where nothing else is possible and yes would fit plume kit but a plume kit is only for that unless stated to be a flue redirection kit -vaillant have the terminology correct but glow worm don't .

 

[kirkgas]

The 150mm is minimum distance from a fabric opening of a building, so the edge of a window frame etc, I think it isn't to be any closer in case the seal between the frame breaks allowing potential for POC's to get in, don't think it's structural

 

[hitch61]

YOu need to beware of the windows being replaced it could become an opener, you would then think it would be the window fitter in the wrong, but beware the ambulance chasers there was a case a few years ago where this happened & it was the GS installer that got it in the goolies.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

Ok that's good. exactly what Mr Hodge and Mr Mingo told the court before they were sent down.

If thats your attitude why have 300mm to an opening, why not 301mm?

If its 300mm from an openable window and 150mm from an un-openable window then what is wrong with fitting it to regs?

Your saying dont fit it to regs

 

[tamz]

You need at least 150mm from the window to clear the lintol bearing (structural) although i've seen lintols hanging on an by a inch.
If you are measuring 100mm from the window taking a straight line from the centre of the boiler flue you can easily get more than 150mm by angling it by a couple of degrees then fit a plume kit. (you could probably land it over 300 if you wanted)
Problem solved.

 

[Reg Man]

If thats your attitude why have 300mm to an opening, why not 301mm?

If its 300mm from an openable window and 150mm from an un-openable window then what is wrong with fitting it to regs?

Your saying dont fit it to regs

I am not interpreting the situation or challenging any ones views. I have just given factual historic information about an incident which occurred when an installer fitted a flue close to an opening which they sealed and a window company changed the window for an opener latter as it was a bathroom. The original gas engineer got done for it. Fact, distances, sealing it up, what happened there after did not help their defence.

 

[tamz]

Strictly speaking anyone who follows you and carries out work on the building that may affect the safe operation of any gas appliances has a duty of care to make sure they still comply but as Steve says it will be your rse in the sling so why chance it.
Just do it right first time then there can never be any come back.

 

[AWheating]

whats to stop somebody putting a new window in, or a new air brick next to a flue or a velux window next to a flue, you cant protect against every situation really but just try your best.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

I am not interpreting the situation or challenging any ones views. I have just given factual historic information about an incident which occurred when an installer fitted a flue close to an opening which they sealed and a window company changed the window for an opener latter as it was a bathroom. The original gas engineer got done for it. Fact, distances, sealing it up, what happened there after did not help their defence.

The difference is that they sealed an opening window, the op and I are talking about a factory made non opening window, which to the regs you have to be 150mm from the change in fabric to the edge of your flue

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Part of a report in Cornwall news.

"There is no dispute that carbon monoxide poisoning caused the death of Mr Jackson."
Mr Fitton said Mingo told a colleague to hammer two two-inch nails through the bathroom window when the pipe was installed in 2005, preventing it from opening as a solution to stop carbon monoxide being pumped into the room.
According to one of Mingo's colleagues, the defendant was "making his instructions up as he went along".
Hodge, said Mr Fitton, later agreed the boiler safe for use.
Mr Fitton added: "There is no documentation that Mr Mingo or Mr Hodge told the hotel of what they had done or the necessity of doing it."
Subsequently, when the hotel replaced its windows during a refurbishment in 2007, the new window could be fully opened.


Read more: Hotel death, faulty boiler | manslaughter charges | Jonathan Mingo & Phillip Hodge | Great Western Hotel, Newquay | Frederick Jackson death | Western Morning News | This is Cornwall
They were found guilty. So by precedent of the law, it must be illegal.

I am with you Reg. These installers believe they complied with the gas regs.
Later the window was replaced with an openable one.
Hotel guest died and Gas engineers found guilty of manslaughter, one was fined £2k the other £5k.

Based on what was reported on the news it always seemed a miscarriage of justice to Mr TP and I. Although the news is not always accurate.

It seems the installers should have told the Hotel owner that that window must never be openable... and perhaps they should have sent regular reminders in case the hotl owners sold the hotel and forgot to pass the message on to future owners.

 

[kirkgas]

I know of the case, but not all the facts, could have been the way they sealed the window, or didn't notify anyone of the change, not sure, but I know if I do something properly and the next person changes the building I won't be to blame, eg OF boiler in kitchen vented to outside till they build a conservatory, or cooker in kitchen with openable window to outside till they build extension and make window internal, how on earth can that ever be my fault, so there must be something in the way they did it,