Firebird flue problem

[Jtj321]

I'm trying to clean the flue on a scooted up Fiebird Evironmax. The condensate pipe had blocked causing the condensate pathways in the boiler to clog with soot. I can't see an easy way to clean the internal passages,anyone seen this please?

 

[SJB060685]

Wet sooty passages are horrible to deal with, really very little you can do. If its really bad take as many turbulators out as possible, put them in a container with hot water and bicarbonate soda and leave to soak and providing there's enough space for flue gases to pass bring the boiler on to dry it out. Once dry tackle it.
I've seen blocked condensate do this several times and its never an easy job. You also want to take burner out and maybe line the inside of boiler with old newspapers before trying to clean.
This is going to be dirty.

Good luck.

 

[Jtj321]

Wet sooty passages are horrible to deal with, really very little you can do. If its really bad take as many turbulators out as possible, put them in a container with hot water and bicarbonate soda and leave to soak and providing there's enough space for flue gases to pass bring the boiler on to dry it out. Once dry tackle it.
I've seen blocked condensate do this several times and its never an easy job. You also want to take burner out and maybe line the inside of boiler with old newspapers before trying to clean.
This is going to be dirty.

Good luck.

Thanks. I'll try and run the burner without baffles and the with the air slide well open.
I wondered about Dualx I've never had one as bad as this and with the flueways do hard to access.

 

[SJB060685]

Your responses have to be cleared by admin because you're a new member, so I'm only just seeing it. I've haven't used dualx, although I've had a quick look online and the product looks OK. I've also run it through some of my fellow oil engineers with conflicting results. Some only do the old scraper and hoover method and some have said that the kamco cleaning products are better.
Are you a home owner or an engineer?

 

[Jtj321]

Your responses have to be cleared by admin because you're a new member, so I'm only just seeing it. I've haven't used dualx, although I've had a quick look online and the product looks OK. I've also run it through some of my fellow oil engineers with conflicting results. Some only do the old scraper and hoover method and some have said that the kamco cleaning products are better.
Are you a home owner or an engineer?

Thanks for taking the time.
I'm an engineer but pretty much retired. Just trying to help an elderly neighbour who's stuck.
Gas boilers mostly have a sensor that shuts the boiler down if the condensate backs up and I feel the lack of something similar here is not good.
The condensate neutraliser is not easy to access and the installer didn't make it clear,although of course that's open to misunderstanding.
The install was one of the current rash of government funded initiatives where a team undertake different aspects of the job,fast,but perhaps a little hurried.No judgement intended.
I'm a scraper and hoover man too but the sludge from the backed up condensate is really nasty,even with a mask.
I'll have a look at Kamco,I've used them on system flushing in the past.
Once again,thanks for taking the time.Appreciated.

 

[SJB060685]

No worries. Happy to help.
Of course this being a Firebird you're probably a little more lucky its a downfiring burner. I've known blocked condensate take out control boxes and other burner components in other boilers.
Also I would advise to your neighbour about upgrading the standard plastic condensate trap to the updated stainless steel one if not already.

 

[Jtj321]

Yea I saw the modified trap which looks far superior,and won't melt of course! I didn't look closely but Im assuming the trap spigot screws into a tapping in the boiler bottom.
For reference the Dualx guy was very helpful and familiar with this model with narrow flueways and gave detsailed instructions on clearing it using the chemical.
I[ll post back on how it goes.
Many thanks.
Mick.

 

[SJB060685]

Yes the updated stainless steel trap is a direct swap, can't go wrong.
Yes let us know the results please

 

[Jtj321]

Yes the updated stainless steel trap is a direct swap, can't go wrong.
Yes let us know the results please

Hi. Update as promised.
Removed main baffles fired boiler for a few minutes with increased air,removed flue elbow sprayed Dualx everywhere until it was running out of the condesate spigot. Replaced all baffles more spray. Reset air and fired with just a short flue pipe.Left air hose off.Lots of muck then settled to a clean burn,0 soot on my old smoke pump.
BUT refitted everything with new firedoor seal,reconnected hose to fan,fired up.....massive smoke.Thought I must have got balanced flue set up wrong so started to dismantle hose and found a rubber flap blocking the airway.
I'm guessing it's a backdraft flap,two tiny attachment points that must have failed.The boiler wouldnt run for any length of time with a blocked airway,but I'm thinking the blocked condensate trap and non working condesate pump didn't actually shut the boiler down,maybe it was the failed flap that finished it off.
Classic double fault scenario,plus my lack of familiarity with the set up.
The flap arrangement looks poor to be honest,these flap things can give trouble at the best of times as I'm sure you will have seen.
Dualx is excellent,and I can't praise the support from the supplier enough.Definately the way to clean a badly sooted,or any boiler really.
p.s. Stainles trap and new pump on order.
Expensive job for a less than 3 year old boiler.Albeit supplied free on the scheme.
Many thanks for the support. A lot of us guys work alone and when you get something you haven't seen it's a real help.
Back to lockdown!
Mick.

 

[SJB060685]

If its the flap I think it is in the snorkel hose do away with it, a poor design that that firebird don't include in new boilers because of it.

 

[Jtj321]

If its the flap I think it is in the snorkel hose do away with it, a poor design that that firebird don't include in new boilers because of it.

Yep.I checked with them in case it was a neccessary part but as you say,discard and forget.
Poor idea.Wouldn't hurt to have a sensor in thecondensate line either. Maybe this problem is rare though.

 

[SJB060685]

Yep.I checked with them in case it was a neccessary part but as you say,discard and forget.
Poor idea.Wouldn't hurt to have a sensor in thecondensate line either. Maybe this problem is rare though.

You can wire in a condensate pump unit to control burner feed. Should the pump fail or a blockage occur the pump will not run and the high level limit stat will cut the power.
I've again asked my fellow engineers and the answer is none of the current boiler manufacturers have this as standard, I've not seen one either, although Firebird used to offer an optional pump as an extra, not sure if they still do though.

 

[Jtj321]

You can wire in a condensate pump unit to control burner feed. Should the pump fail or a blockage occur the pump will not run and the high level limit stat will cut the power.
I've again asked my fellow engineers and the answer is none of the current boiler manufacturers have this as standard, I've not seen one either, although Firebird used to offer an optional pump as an extra, not sure if they still do though.

Firebird offer a condensate pump as a standard extra it seems and it is wired into the burner feed so burner on pump on I guess this must be the norm,as I said,I'm well past it! Sorry don't see how the overheat stat is triggered? Normal stat will shut burner down first? Is it a series wiring thing?
Anyhow it's clearly vital to change the neutralizing cartridge regularly.
Mick.

 

[SJB060685]

Firebird offer a condensate pump as a standard extra it seems and it is wired into the burner feed so burner on pump on I guess this must be the norm,as I said,I'm well past it! Sorry don't see how the overheat stat is triggered? Normal stat will shut burner down first? Is it a series wiring thing?
Anyhow it's clearly vital to change the neutralizing cartridge regularly.
Mick.

No the normal high limit and boiler stats control feed to burner. With an external pump wired in series after stats it has its own high level liquid limit stat.

 

[Jtj321]

No the normal high limit and boiler stats control feed to burner. With an external pump wired in series after stats it has its own high level liquid limit stat.

Got it. High level sensor is for liquid not temp...of course it is!!! Makes sense. Need to work out sensor location but it seems a sensible upgrade.
Would have saved this old guy about £300 or more.
Thanks for the help.Much appreciated.
Mick.