Faulty Push-Fit Fittings !!!!

[jtsplumbing]

Hi Guys, did a full house referb 3-4 mths ago using a leading brand of push fit materials, had 2 leaks one on first fill up ('O' ring ) missing, not a problem just replaced it, 2nd leak was 3mths after job was finished, Pipe came out of fitting (Faulty grab ring) House owner says its my fault, reported to local rep, sent off parts for lab report, but he says that once fittings leave factory they cant be held responsible, house owner looking for refund for cost of repair/damage ! so who is at fault ? Factory, my supplier or me ??

 

[ShaunCorbs]

sorry to say you and why did you use push fit?

 

[oz-plumber]

Get the Rep to put in writing what he said to you.

Be pleasant and say you need it for your insurance company to process the claim form.
Get it on a letterhead from supplier / manufacturer.

The home owners and their insurance are going to go after you - be prepared.

Give the letter from the Rep to your insurance provider - and if it is a reputable plumbing brand that said they cannot guarantee the fittings after they leave the factory - let your insurance company handle the rest.
Legalities of warranties - too much for you to take on without bottomless pockets.

Worst case scenario - you pay your excess.

And try to stay amicable with the home owners until this gets sorted...not overly - just keep them informed of the proceedings.

 

[Best]

Rep will never give what he said in writing. He was just trying to wriggle out of it. He will know he is wrong.
If it is provable that there was a fault in the fitting, then the factory is ultimately faulty, although it starts with the installer is responsible to the customer.
Make a complaint in writing and verbally to your merchant, with photographic proof etc of it being faulty. Tell them push fit rep said what he said. Also same to your insurance.

 

[stevetheplumber]

the get out will be did you prssure test the intall to the correct pressure and for the correct time?

 

[Ray Stafford]

Firstly, we need to separate the terms "fault" and "responsibility".

In a legal sense, the householder has a contract with you, and with no-body else. The only person he can sue is you*. You are responsible for his problem. That doesn't necessarily mean that its your fault.

You have two contracts - one with the householder (as supplier) and another with your merchant (who supplied you).

Your merchant also has two contracts, one with you, and one with the manufacturer. The manufacturer only has a contract with the merchant.

So if this goes legal, the cases run up the chain - householder sues you, you sue merchant, merchant sues manufacturer.

It is usually more productive to stay out of court, and have a conversation involving all parties. Often the merchant can facilitate this - I have done this many times - by acting as go-between and "honest broker".

*Assuming there was not a builder involved. If you were working for a builder, then householder sues builder, builder sues plumber and so on

 

[hammers4spanner]

Hi Guys, did a full house referb 3-4 mths ago using a leading brand of push fit materials, had 2 leaks one on first fill up ('O' ring ) missing, not a problem just replaced it, 2nd leak was 3mths after job was finished, Pipe came out of fitting (Faulty grab ring) House owner says its my fault, reported to local rep, sent off parts for lab report, but he says that once fittings leave factory they cant be held responsible, house owner looking for refund for cost of repair/damage ! so who is at fault ? Factory, my supplier or me ??

Unfortunately joe its down to you have been in this exact situation couple year ago with a leading push fit manufacturer. I pressure tested all my 1st fix in accordance to MI's had it witnessed and signed off by the builder. 11 months into a 12 month defect period fitting blew off under floor.
Fitting was not under stress all nice straight pipework , no scratches on plastic nor dirt yet i took the blame.Be advised don't use your insurance company because when i did once my monthly premium was nearly 4 times as much on my next quote .

Just suck it up I'm afraid

 

[plumben]

As above just take the cost or sort something out with the customer i'e you pay for half the damage,
And take a lesson learnt not to use push fit

 

[JCplumb]

Not sounding good is it? Good luck to you JTS.
I've heard a few tales of push fits popping off recently. Have the manufacturers become complacent? Cutting corners/costs?
Not good, I do use pushfit sometimes, used two John Guest elbows last week on a run that I couldn't get dry long enough to solder, the pipe was empty but kept glugging down from upstairs every time I touched it.
Pretty much all the new builds I come across are plastic too, so would have no choice other than to use push fit.
I know I'll be checking every fitting I use from now on.

 

[hammers4spanner]

This reminds me a few year ago on a site i was on we were using soma gold and had a fitting blow off , rep came out as we kicked up a fuss and we were sucking in shed loads of materials.

Got them to take responsibility over the fitting however the firm we were working for was a fair size and drawing in loads of soma. I don't think a small firm would have such leaning power to get them to admit fault.

 

[Ray Stafford]

I don't think a small firm would have such leaning power to get them to admit fault.

Thats why I recommended bringing in the merchant. They are likely to have more leverage with the manufacturer.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Thanks for the reply's, just been speaking to my supplier this morning, tells me they have had lots of fittings/pipe that has been faulty, but manufacturer will deny that there is a problem (This is a leading brand) have more luck getting an audience with the pope than getting them to admit a fault with there goods, they cant be responsible once it leaves factory, as soon as bag of fittings is opened its every one else's fault.

 

[gassafe]

It's no good guys saying why did you use speed fit, it's been around plenty long enough now, it's all that's fitted in new builds!!! It's as if there implying the use of speed fit was the cause of the leak & they were at fault to use the product.

Why not give us the make so we know to have a heads up??

 

[Ch4 plumbing]

sorry to say you and why did you use push fit?

What's wrong with push fit Shaun? It has its uses if fitted correctly and tested.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

What's wrong with push fit Shaun? It has its uses if fitted correctly and tested.

it has its uses yes the only thing i will use it for is fishing (long runs where needs to be in one length) or there stop ends and i only use jg

and tbh its more hassle than its worth needs clipping every 300 else it looks like a snake, not supportive eg when hot the thing drops if not clipped and fittings are massive

but it has it uses

i find i use more of there fittings over there pipe, like someone said above wet pipe/ pressure coupling and iso valve and bang on and done

 

[plumben]

Personally i'd rather use copper all day, but when I've used JG SPF it's been for a long run with no joints,
I hate the stuff
Yes its quick and easy But it also gives me night mares
Ive used it plenty of times and every time i'd rather of used copper
The fact the joint relies on the rubber O ring, it can't last forever and as proven the manufacture wont accept liability for a faulty fitting so how can they give any guarantee on there pipe and fittings

 

[gassafe]

Yes, very true... The 25 year or 50 year guarantee is indeed worthless as they don't back it up or admit liability & would definitely never fund repairs for damages!

 

[jtsplumbing]

So what exactly does the guarantee cover ??? does anyone know ? has anyone tried to make a claim ??

 

[Ray Stafford]

Yes, very true... The 25 year or 50 year guarantee is indeed worthless as they don't back it up or admit liability & would definitely never fund repairs for damages!

I've come across a number of cases where the manufacturer has accepted liability when there has been geniune evidence of product failure. Equally, I there have been a huge number of claims where problems have arisen through no insert, or through not pushing it home, or from hack-saw cut pipe damaging the o-ring. Lots of these claims have also been covered, particularly where large builders and contractors have been concerned.

All these claims tend to make the manufacturers a tad defensive, and there is certainly no way that they are going to authorise a local rep to admit liability.

The most difficult cases I have been involved in relate to pin-holed copper pipe, and grief sorting out liability around that.

 

[Stanios]

I use plastic more than copper, this is my take on the liability question.

Your contract ends as soon as you leave the door and get paid. If you have any warranty terms they are probably for workmanship under these you would simply re-do work you havnt done properly if it can be proven you havnt done it properly. If your faulty workmanship caused damage you are only liable if it can be proven you acted negligenty.
In any case faulty materials aren't your responsibility because you arent the supplier of those materials. Customer pays you to buy them you are just an intermediary between customer and merchant. You are a service provider and can only be held accountable for faults in your service not faults in factory made products.

Nor are they merchants responsibility because stuff they supply comes packaged and have undergone quality controll by manufacturer. Unless again merhant has been negligent in storing it badly resulting in the fault for example.

The manufacturer gives end user the guarantee that the item will function over certain number of years and is directly liable for any damage caused by failure of that guarantee.
Householder should claim off house insurance to save everyone, themselves included a headache.

Copper fitting that causes damage can almost certainly be atributed to improper installation putting installer at fault. Whilst plastic can easily be checked for proper installation. More sleepless nights for everyone!

 

[Ray Stafford]

I use plastic more than copper, this is my take on the liability question.

Your contract ends as soon as you leave the door and get paid. If you have any warranty terms they are probably for workmanship under these you would simply re-do work you havnt done properly if it can be proven you havnt done it properly. If your faulty workmanship caused damage you are only liable if it can be proven you acted negligenty.
In any case faulty materials aren't your responsibility because you arent the supplier of those materials. Customer pays you to buy them you are just an intermediary between customer and merchant. You are a service provider and can only be held accountable for faults in your service not faults in factory made products.

Nor are they merchants responsibility because stuff they supply comes packaged and have undergone quality controll by manufacturer. Unless again merhant has been negligent in storing it badly resulting in the fault for example.

The manufacturer gives end user the guarantee that the item will function over certain number of years and is directly liable for any damage caused by failure of that guarantee.

Sorry Stanios - are you describing what you think OUGHT to be the law, or the ACTUAL law? This may be what you would like, but in terms of the law in England and Wales, its comprehensively inaccurate.

Sorry!

 

[Stanios]

Sorry Stanios - are you describing what you think OUGHT to be the law, or the ACTUAL law? This may be what you would like, but in terms of the law in England and Wales, its comprehensively inaccurate.

Sorry!

This is what I'd tell the customer to get them off my back :stuart:

 

[hammers4spanner]

So what exactly does the guarantee cover ??? does anyone know ? has anyone tried to make a claim ??

I went at it hammer and tongs about the issue i had (polyplumb) fitting blowing off showed all the paperwork for testing , showed photo's everything i could as was perplexed as to how a fitting tested suddenly blows off 11 months later.
rep was back against the wall and the phone calls to poly was pointless they just don't back up the guarantee from my experience.
Never used it since on my own work .

 

[Ch4 plumbing]

it has its uses yes the only thing i will use it for is fishing (long runs where needs to be in one length) or there stop ends and i only use jg

and tbh its more hassle than its worth needs clipping every 300 else it looks like a snake, not supportive eg when hot the thing drops if not clipped and fittings are massive

but it has it uses

i find i use more of there fittings over there pipe, like someone said above wet pipe/ pressure coupling and iso valve and bang on and done

I only use plastic fittings on plastic pipe, the only variation to that is if I bring a copper tail up say for a rad or hot/cold feed.

As for plastic pipe suffering from the dreaded Brewers droop the only reason for that is lack of clips - answer simple use more!

I mainly use it for running through holes I've drilled in hosts on site and never had a problem after testing.

 

[Best]

I only use plastic fittings on plastic pipe, the only variation to that is if I bring a copper tail up say for a rad or hot/cold feed.

As for plastic pipe suffering from the dreaded Brewers droop the only reason for that is lack of clips - answer simple use more! ............QUOTE]

But isn't it a bit crazy that you are supposed to clip plastic pipe every 300mm, but one of the big alleged advantages of plastic is you can just feed it below floors from A to B? That's obviously okay on new builds, but not on an already built home, if you can clip every 300mm, you can easily fit copper.

 

[Ch4 plumbing]

I only use plastic fittings on plastic pipe, the only variation to that is if I bring a copper tail up say for a rad or hot/cold feed.

As for plastic pipe suffering from the dreaded Brewers droop the only reason for that is lack of clips - answer simple use more! ............QUOTE]


But isn't it a bit crazy that you are supposed to clip plastic pipe every 300mm, but one of the big alleged advantages of plastic is you can just feed it below floors from A to B? That's obviously okay on new builds, but not on an already built home, if you can clip every 300mm, you can easily fit copper.

Agree with that mate, I always try and use copper in all my work but new builds are a different ball game.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Agree with that mate, I always try and use copper in all my work but new builds are a different ball game.

maybe thats why i dont do dom new build price to high

 

[jtsplumbing]

Well as hammers has named the maker I am having problems with I will confirm it is Polyplumb ! I don't expect to get anywhere with them, but I was at a merchants in Saltash with the rep, when someone else rang in and was asking about the problem he had with a grab ring missing, what are we supposed to do strip every fitting B4 we use it ?? All I was told was because the fittings are on display anyone could tamper with them !

 

[Ray Stafford]

I was at a merchants in Saltash

Was that Dougfields JTS?

Sorry to go off-topic?

 

[jtsplumbing]

Was that Dougfields JTS?

Sorry to go off-topic?

Yes Ray use them quite a lot, but fittings didn't come from them, (Plumbase Plymouth)

 

[Ray Stafford]

Yes Ray use them quite a lot, but fittings didn't come from them, (Plumbase Plymouth)

Mick Pothecary, who used to manage Dougfields at Saltash is now running our Winchester branch. A bit nearer to Fratton park for those home games.

Back on topic, Plumbbase should be backing you up here. Which Polypipe rep are you arguing with?

 

[hammers4spanner]

im not sure plumbase will tho as I'm just down the road from them and in their few times a week ,get that impression that they don't help much with manufacturers.

( you opening a branch down this end ray)

 

[goz666]

I recently had a problem with a plastic insert that hadn't been finished properly and had no hole through it. We ended up using it without even looking to check. Phone call from customer and a LONG letter of complaint and although I didn't get compensation I was sent over £300 of free fittings.
The manufacturer did of course say it wasn't their responsibility but was a goodwill gesture.

Regarding the manufacturer not taking liability I did tell them I was prepared to engage a solicitor and contact Trading Standards.
As far as I'm concerned they are responsible for faulty fittings, whether they've left the factory or not, I'd like to see Toyota's solicitor in court telling a judge the dead people aren't our fault......the brakes aren't our responsibility once they leave the factory........They are if they're defective and not fit for purpose.

 

[Stanios]

I recently had a problem with a plastic insert that hadn't been finished properly and had no hole through it. We ended up using it without even looking to check. Phone call from customer and a LONG letter of complaint and although I didn't get compensation I was sent over £300 of free fittings.
The manufacturer did of course say it wasn't their responsibility but was a goodwill gesture.

Regarding the manufacturer not taking liability I did tell them I was prepared to engage a solicitor and contact Trading Standards.
As far as I'm concerned they are responsible for faulty fittings, whether they've left the factory or not, I'd like to see Toyota's solicitor in court telling a judge the dead people aren't our fault......the brakes aren't our responsibility once they leave the factory........They are if they're defective and not fit for purpose.

Guess theyve never heard about the sales of goods act