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Can anyone point me to a product that provides waterproof insulation for an external buried condensate 32mm pipe ? Non of my local building suppliers appear to have such an item in stock
 
Armaflex

Either there normal stuff or tuffcoat
 
I havnt bought any for a while now , depending on how much you need may end up having to buy a long roll .
 
Can anyone point me to a product that provides waterproof insulation for an external buried condensate 32mm pipe ? Non of my local building suppliers appear to have such an item in stock

Hello Martyn2,

As Shaun wrote - Armaflex TuffCoat pipe Insulation is the only `readily available` [almost certainly have to order] Pipe Insulation that I am aware of that is actually specified for `Underground` / Buried pipework - e.g. Water Mains pipework.

About 2 Years ago I used the 35mm internal diameter x 19mm wall thickness size - only available in 1 metre lengths at that time and from memory it was over ÂŁ16.00 per metre.

BUT - the TuffCoat ` Insulation Tape to correctly seal the seams was over ÂŁ60.00 for a Roll and I think only available in 50 metre x 50mm rolls.

To adhere to the Installation Instructions You would also need Armaflex Adhesive to glue the seams and that is not cheap either although I cannot remember what I paid for it - and also Armaflex Mastic to fill any small gaps if you are going to have any Mitred joints for example around Pipe elbows.

Because it has a PVC Coating it is quite rigid and not really suitable for using on Bends - for example if it was being used on Water Mains pipework the pipe would have to be installed to suit the rigidity of the TuffCoat Insulation - no Bends over about 15 - 20 degrees.

`Segmented bends`
can be formed but that is a quite complicated and time consuming process to cut and seal the segments which I would always avoid if possible.

If You have Elbows in the Pipework you will already know that you will have to form mitred joints on the Insulation which should be Glued and the joints sealed with Armaflex Mastic and then over-sealed with strips cut from the Armaflex TuffCoat Tape.

As You can imagine it can be an expensive task because of the cost of the Insulation - Tape - Mastic & Adhesive and if it was being seen - e.g. run on a wall you would also need Armaflex Cleaner to remove Adhesive residue / Finger marks etc.

I hope that this information is helpful.

Regards,

Chris
 
Last edited:
Hello Martyn2,

As Shaun wrote - Armaflex TuffCoat pipe Insulation is the only `readily available` [almost certainly have to order] Pipe Insulation that I am aware of that is actually specified for `Underground` / Buried pipework - e.g. Water Mains pipework.

About 2 Years ago I used the 35mm internal diameter x 19mm wall thickness size - only available in 1 metre lengths at that time and from memory it was over ÂŁ16.00 per metre.

BUT - the TuffCoat ` Insulation Tape to correctly seal the seams was over ÂŁ60.00 for a Roll and I think only available in 50 metre x 50mm rolls.

To adhere to the Installation Instructions You would also need Armaflex Adhesive to glue the seams and that is not cheap either although I cannot remember what I paid for it - and also Armaflex Mastic to fill any small gaps if you are going to have any Mitred joints for example around Pipe elbows.

Because it has a PVC Coating it is quite rigid and not really suitable for using on Bends - for example if it was being used on Water Mains pipework the pipe would have to be installed to suit the rigidity of the TuffCoat Insulation - no Bends over about 15 - 20 degrees.

`Segmented bends`
can be formed but that is a quite complicated and time consuming process to cut and seal the segments which I would always avoid if possible.

If You have Elbows in the Pipework you will already know that you will have to form mitred joints on the Insulation which should be Glued and the joints sealed with Armaflex Mastic and then over-sealed with strips cut from the Armaflex TuffCoat Tape.

As You can imagine it can be an expensive task because of the cost of the Insulation - Tape - Mastic & Adhesive and if it was being seen - e.g. run on a wall you would also need Armaflex Cleaner to remove Adhesive residue / Finger marks etc.

I hope that this information is helpful.

Regards,

Chris

you mean this?

Armaflex Glue Adhesive 1/4 Ltr ADH520/0.25
 

Hello Shaun,

If You mean was I referring to the product that you gave the link to when I wrote that the `Armaflex Adhesive was not cheap` - it is that product but the size that I had bought was a 1/2 Litre [I think that was the smallest size available then ?] and I thought that I remembered that it was `not cheap` - having given it a bit more thought I think that I might have paid about ÂŁ15.00 but I cannot be sure now.

I ordered the TuffCoat Insulation - Adhesive - Mastic & Insulated Tape via my Plumbing & Heating Materials Supplier so that it could be delivered with other Plumbing & Heating Materials and they had priced the Armaflex items for me so they will have added their handling charge and profit to their Suppliers price.

I think that it is possible that because of the fairly recent realisation that it is an absolute necessity to insulate external Boiler Condensate pipework - 14 years after the launch of Condensing Boilers ! - Armaflex may have decided at some point in the last few years to produce the 1/4 Litre size to suit a small run of Armaflex TuffCoat Pipe Insulation ?

When Condensing Boilers were first available if You or I had to run Boiler Condensate pipework externally [only because there was no other way] We would have never had to be told to increase the Pipe diameter and to apply Waterproof / UV protected Pipe Insulation - but as you know from reading about `Thousands of Boiler Condensate pipe Freeze in very Cold temperatures` there have been Thousands - perhaps Hundreds of Thousands of Condensate pipes installed incorrectly [?] run in Overflow pipe and without any Insulation !

However back to this thread - although the Armaflex Adhesive is a vital part of the Pipe Insulation Installation process as You have pointed out it will be a very small part of the Cost.

I hope that I understood your point correctly - You were letting Me and the OP know that Armaflex Adhesive is NOT `expensive` as I thought I had remembered ?

Regards,

Chris
 
Hello Shaun,

If You mean was I referring to the product that you gave the link to when I wrote that the `Armaflex Adhesive was not cheap` - it is that product but the size that I had bought was a 1/2 Litre [I think that was the smallest size available then ?] and I thought that I remembered that it was `not cheap` - having given it a bit more thought I think that I might have paid about ÂŁ15.00 but I cannot be sure now.

I ordered the TuffCoat Insulation - Adhesive - Mastic & Insulated Tape via my Plumbing & Heating Materials Supplier so that it could be delivered with other Plumbing & Heating Materials and they had priced the Armaflex items for me so they will have added their handling charge and profit to their Suppliers price.

I think that it is possible that because of the fairly recent realisation that it is an absolute necessity to insulate external Boiler Condensate pipework - 14 years after the launch of Condensing Boilers ! - Armaflex may have decided at some point in the last few years to produce the 1/4 Litre size to suit a small run of Armaflex TuffCoat Pipe Insulation ?

When Condensing Boilers were first available if You or I had to run Boiler Condensate pipework externally [only because there was no other way] We would have never had to be told to increase the Pipe diameter and to apply Waterproof / UV protected Pipe Insulation - but as you know from reading about `Thousands of Boiler Condensate pipe Freeze in very Cold temperatures` there have been Thousands - perhaps Hundreds of Thousands of Condensate pipes installed incorrectly [?] run in Overflow pipe and without any Insulation !

However back to this thread - although the Armaflex Adhesive is a vital part of the Pipe Insulation Installation process as You have pointed out it will be a very small part of the Cost.

I hope that I understood your point correctly - You were letting Me and the OP know that Armaflex Adhesive is NOT `expensive` as I thought I had remembered ?

Regards,

Chris

I was just asking which one you used as there seems to be 3 different types eg model numbers

Would the glue need to be uv resistant ?
 
Martyn is this a new application or is it specified for a job I see you said it was buried and external I have never heard of a 32mm condensate pipe freezing have seen o/f pipe insulated in a short run most boiler ask for 32 mm to prevent freezing ,just asking trying to visualise your job in my mind
 
Martyn is this a new application or is it specified for a job I see you said it was buried and external I have never heard of a 32mm condensate pipe freezing have seen o/f pipe insulated in a short run most boiler ask for 32 mm to prevent freezing ,just asking trying to visualise your job in my mind
 
Martyn is this a new application or is it specified for a job I see you said it was buried and external I have never heard of a 32mm condensate pipe freezing have seen o/f pipe insulated in a short run most boiler ask for 32 mm to prevent freezing ,just asking trying to visualise your job in my mind
This is a new job hopefully being done by me to HHIC specifications. The specs only talk of trace heating in extreme conditions which I don't think is applicable, but I just wanted to make sure with the extra insulation. There seems to be a lot of confusion with external condensate arrangements. For instance worcester boch advertise an item called "Condensure" which has the condensate leaving at a higher temperature. That seems to pay no regard to the "Mpemba Effect" (Google it).
 
This is where we turn into the mad scientist and not plumbers every time they bring something new to the trades two weeks later there is a newer and different version and better they will tell you,person personally I think they are just complicating things we have had plumbing and heating systems working for over 100 years and all good now the newer systems break down at the drop of a hat mostly all faults with modern technology sensors,boards even some taps and showers are gone digital it's only for asthetics for the consumer to make it look nice not for the inner workings of the shower don't jump down my throat that was just an opinion
 
This is where we turn into the mad scientist and not plumbers every time they bring something new to the trades two weeks later there is a newer and different version and better they will tell you,person personally I think they are just complicating things we have had plumbing and heating systems working for over 100 years and all good now the newer systems break down at the drop of a hat mostly all faults with modern technology sensors,boards even some taps and showers are gone digital it's only for asthetics for the consumer to make it look nice not for the inner workings of the shower don't jump down my throat that was just an opinion
Totally agree. How many original CH systems can you actually match a new combi boiler to and still get the so called efficiency advantage?
 
Hmm. IIRC it was corgi who decided that it was a good idea to run condensate in a larger dia pipe that the 21mm of overflow...

Condensate freezes as the droplets are so small they hold very little sensible heat. Once that heat dissipates it will freeze if external temps are low enough - end of.

The ONLY point of insulation is to try to reduce the time it takes for the sensible heat to dissipate. However, insulation itself will never stop freezing - only delay it.

There are only two ways to stop freezing. The first, and always the best from a scientific perspective, is to install trace heating. The point of trace heating is to replace the heat lost by the condensate as it travels. It also raises the internal temperature of the pipe to above freezing. The condensate will flow but not freeze. One of the things Corgi got wrong was the pipe upscale. Fact is when you upscale a pipe like that you actually introduce additional cooling factors in teh form of internal circulatory air currents. These ADD to cooling going on and so work against keeping the heat IN the condensate. When using trace heating, one should always allow for heat to escape too so you do not use as thick a wall insulation. You also make sure you run it to manufactures specs as it can occasionally overheat pipe.

The second way to stop freezing is to supply enough sensible heat in water that over its journey its not possible to drop it low enough to freeze. This is where condensate pumps come into play. Instead of a drip at a time, they pump loads out. That load has enough heat energy in it not to drop low enough over its short journey to freeze. Whilst they are good, personally I'd never use on unless it was an almost vertical run to drain. The last drops will end up freezing so over time even they can block.

Lastly, and then I'll shut up I promise, in cold places around the world and of course commercially, trace heating is a no brainer. Britain, bless our cotton socks, thinks it knows so much better... Guess what? We do not...

Sorry for going on.
 
I have never heard it called for on a 32 mm pipe just trying to picture it in my head anyway it's the summer so we won't have to worry about it freezing best of luck with the job Martyn keep us posted
 
I was just asking which one you used as there seems to be 3 different types eg model numbers

Would the glue need to be uv resistant ?


Hello Shaun,

Sorry that I have only just seen your message [10pm Wednesday ] or I would have replied sooner.

As far as I know there is only one Armaflex Adhesive - is it possible that the model numbers that You saw refer to different can sizes ?

When glueing either `Armaflex Original` or the `TuffCoat` the insulation seam surfaces are the same material - TuffCoat just has a PVC external coating which makes it Waterproof and UV resistant.

Because the Installation process for Armaflex TuffCoat involves the glued seams being covered with the TuffCoat Tape the Adhesive does not need to be resistant to UV rays.

Regards,

Chris
 
Hello Shaun,

Sorry that I have only just seen your message [10pm Wednesday ] or I would have replied sooner.

As far as I know there is only one Armaflex Adhesive - is it possible that the model numbers that You saw refer to different can sizes ?

When glueing either `Armaflex Original` or the `TuffCoat` the insulation seam surfaces are the same material - TuffCoat just has a PVC external coating which makes it Waterproof and UV resistant.

Because the Installation process for Armaflex TuffCoat involves the glued seams being covered with the TuffCoat Tape the Adhesive does not need to be resistant to UV rays.

Regards,

Chris

There seem to be two main types 520 and 625

TBH I wouldn't think it would matter what glue you use aslong as it's suitable eg for the material the lagging is made from
 
There seem to be two main types 520 and 625

TBH I wouldn't think it would matter what glue you use aslong as it's suitable eg for the material the lagging is made from

Hello again Shaun,

I have just read the Armaflex specifications for the 2 types of Insulation Adhesives:

The HT625 is described as a `High Temperature` Pipe Insulation Adhesive for temperatures of up to 150 degrees.

The 520 is described as suitable for temperatures of up to 120 degrees.

I was not aware of the HT625 Adhesive as I would not have ever had to Insulate Pipework that reached anywhere near 150 degrees.

Regards,

Chris
 
Fair enough thought it was for high and low temp eg -20/30
 
All of the Armaflex talked about here is Nitrile based. The UV protection is to stop the rubber breaking down in sunlight. That's what TuffCoat is, simply a UV protection covering.
 
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