Expansion vessel pre charge

[Matt0029]

I have a 35litre central heating expansion vessel that has come with a pre charge of 1.5 bar. Does this sound a little heigh? As the pressure in the system will have to rise above 1.5bar for it or absorb any expansion? Thanks

 

[John.g]

Normally, a E.vessel would be installed pre charged to 1.0 bar and then filled to 1.5 bar, it will then rise to ~ 2 bar with a hot system, no problem. If its pre charged to 1.5 bar and its only filled to 1.5 bar then the final pressure will be practically the same but will have to be topped up more frequently after any air venting etc as there is no reserve. If pre charged to 1.5 bar and filled to 2 bar then the final pressure will be ~ 2.6 bar, still OK but getting a bit near the boiler PRV (safety valve) lifting pressure of 3.0 bar.

Why have you a 35 litre E.vessel for a CH system??, it's normally around 10 to 12 Litre, are you sure its not attached to your unvented HW cylinder? If it is attached to your CH system then the pressure will only rise ~ 0.25bar even with precharge/filling pressures of 1.5/2.0 bar

 

[Matt0029]

Normally, a E.vessel would be installed pre charged to 1.0 bar and then filled to 1.5 bar, it will then rise to ~ 2 bar with a hot system, no problem. If its pre charged to 1.5 bar and its only filled to 1.5 bar then the final pressure will be practically the same but will have to be topped up more frequently after any air venting etc as there is no reserve. If pre charged to 1.5 bar and filled to 2 bar then the final pressure will be ~ 2.6 bar, still OK but getting a bit near the boiler PRV (safety valve) lifting pressure of 3.0 bar.

Why have you a 35 litre E.vessel for a CH system??, it's normally around 10 to 12 Litre, are you sure its not attached to your unvented HW cylinder? If it is attached to your CH system then the pressure will only rise ~ 0.25bar even with precharge/filling pressures of 1.5/2.0 bar

It's a big system commerical 35 rads. Plan on running the system at 1 bar cold. I know most expansion vessels in combis are pre charged to 0.75 bar.

 

[John.g]

If you want to run at 1 bar cold then reduce the pre charge to 1 bar and fill to 1 bar or preferably reduce pre charge to 0.75 bar and fill to 1 bar, even with a system capacity of 500 litres then the hot pressure at 1bar/1bar will only be 1.71 bar and at 0.75bar/1bar, 1.85 bar.

 

[fezster]

If its pre charged to 1.5 bar and its only filled to 1.5 bar then the final pressure will be practically the same but will have to be topped up more frequently after any air venting etc as there is no reserve.

Would you mind elaborating on this?

If your EV is charged to 1 bar and you top up the system to 1.5 bar, you are utilising the expansion capacity of the vessel when cold, reducing the amount of expansion available when hot. Is there some advantage in doing this (which is what I think you were implying)?

 

[John.g]

Yes, the advantage is that you have a reserve volume of water to make up for any air venting, micro bubbles collapsing or any tiny leaks without the system pressure falling below your minimum requirement of 1.0 bar before top up is required, you can also monitor for any leakage as the pressure will fall from 1.5 bar cold to 1.0 bar before exhausting this reserve.
If you take a fairly standard CH system of 75 litres with a 12 litre EV pre charged to 1.0 bar and filled to 1.5 bar then you will have a reserve volume of 2.4 litres and a final hot pressure of 1.92 bar, if both pre charge and filling pressure are 1 bar then no reserve and if any slight leakage/venting etc the cold pressure will start falling immediately, but yes, the reserve does reduce the amount of expansion available as the final pressure with no reserve will be 1.26bar (vs 1.92bar), any pressure up to 2.25/2.5 bar is not a problem for any system, one can always install a slightly bigger EV if any worries re final pressure.

 

[Matt0029]

To adjust I'm I OK just realising the pressure till it gets to 0.75 /1 bar? Or fulling deflating and re charging. Thanks

 

[John.g]

You will have to fully de pressurize on the water side before reducing the air side pre charge pressure.
If you have no special concerns re pipework/rads why not leave it at 1.5 bar and initially fill to 1.5 bar, I wouldn't expect the hot pressure to be >2.2 bar and try that, if you fill to say 1.7 bar would expect ~ 2.3 bar, you may well find those final pressures are lower as I calculated them on a system vol of 400 litres which may be lower.

If you do the above and post the findings I can probably calculate the air side reduction required without draining down the system, just ensure all the system up to normal temperature.

 

[Matt0029]

You will have to fully de pressurize on the water side before reducing the air side pre charge pressure.
If you have no special concerns re pipework/rads why not leave it at 1.5 bar and initially fill to 1.5 bar, I wouldn't expect the hot pressure to be >2.2 bar and try that, if you fill to say 1.7 bar would expect ~ 2.3 bar, you may well find those final pressures are lower as I calculated them on a system vol of 400 litres which may be lower.

If you do the above and post the findings I can probably calculate the air side reduction required without draining down the system, just ensure all the system up to normal temperature.

Thanks its yet to be fit so if I'm going to depressurise now is the time. I want to run to system at no more then one bar cold. Boiler manufactor specifics this. Also is a convert from open vented to sealed so want to keep the pressure as low as I can. Thanks.

 

[Matt0029]

If you want to run at 1 bar cold then reduce the pre charge to 1 bar and fill to 1 bar or preferably reduce pre charge to 0.75 bar and fill to 1 bar, even with a system capacity of 500 litres then the hot pressure at 1bar/1bar will only be 1.71 bar and at 0.75bar/1bar, 1.85 bar.

Can I also ask what would happen if the system was filled to 1 bar cold. And the expansion vessel was left at the pre-charge of 1.5bar? Guessing it wouldn't start using the expansion till it gets to 1.5 bar. So the pressure would rise quiet alot?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Normally 0.2 bar below operating pressure matt

 

[John.g]

Can I also ask what would happen if the system was filled to 1 bar cold. And the expansion vessel was left at the pre-charge of 1.5bar? Guessing it wouldn't start using the expansion till it gets to 1.5 bar. So the pressure would rise quiet alot?

No, since water is virtually non compressible it would almost immediately rise to 1.5 bar (after heating up a few degrees) and would behave exactly the same as if the pre charge and filling pressures are the same ie 1.5 bar.

If the system capacity/precharge/filling are 400ltrs/1.5bar/1.5 bar the final pressure will be ~ 2.16 bar with a 35 litre EV.

If the system capacity/precharge/filling are 400ltrs/1.5bar/1.75 bar the final pressure will be ~ 2.57 bar with a 35 litre EV.

If the system capacity/precharge/filling are 400ltrs/0.75bar/1.0 bar the final pressure will be ~ 1.63 bar with a 35 litre EV.

 

[Matt0029]

No, since water is virtually non compressible it would almost immediately rise to 1.5 bar (after heating up a few degrees) and would behave exactly the same as if the pre charge and filling pressures are the same ie 1.5 bar.

If the system capacity/precharge/filling are 400ltrs/1.5bar/1.5 bar the final pressure will be ~ 2.16 bar with a 35 litre EV.

If the system capacity/precharge/filling are 400ltrs/1.5bar/1.75 bar the final pressure will be ~ 2.57 bar with a 35 litre EV.

If the system capacity/precharge/filling are 400ltrs/0.75bar/1.0 bar the final pressure will be ~ 1.63 bar with a 35 litre EV.

Thanks I was going to go with one bar system pressure cold. And a pre charge of 1 bar. This should go up to around 1.75bar did you say?

 

[Matt0029]

Normally 0.2 bar below operating pressure matt

Ah so I should drop the pre charge to around 0.8. But then the expansion vessel will use some of its storage even when the systems cold? Interesting thread. Didn't no the ins and out of pre charge pressures etc. Just thought was abit high at 1.5 bar on the vessel bought.

 

[Matt0029]

Yes, the advantage is that you have a reserve volume of water to make up for any air venting, micro bubbles collapsing or any tiny leaks without the system pressure falling below your minimum requirement of 1.0 bar before top up is required, you can also monitor for any leakage as the pressure will fall from 1.5 bar cold to 1.0 bar before exhausting this reserve.
If you take a fairly standard CH system of 75 litres with a 12 litre EV pre charged to 1.0 bar and filled to 1.5 bar then you will have a reserve volume of 2.4 litres and a final hot pressure of 1.92 bar, if both pre charge and filling pressure are 1 bar then no reserve and if any slight leakage/venting etc the cold pressure will start falling immediately, but yes, the reserve does reduce the amount of expansion available as the final pressure with no reserve will be 1.26bar (vs 1.92bar), any pressure up to 2.25/2.5 bar is not a problem for any system, one can always install a slightly bigger EV if any worries re final pressure.

I think that answers my above question.

 

[John.g]

Ah so I should drop the pre charge to around 0.8. But then the expansion vessel will use some of its storage even when the systems cold? Interesting thread. Didn't no the ins and out of pre charge pressures etc. Just thought was abit high at 1.5 bar on the vessel bought.

If the system capacity/precharge/filling are 400ltrs/1.0bar/1.0 bar the final pressure will be ~ 1.53 bar with a 35 litre EV......no reserve

If the system capacity/precharge/filling are 400ltrs/0.8bar/1.0 bar the final pressure will be ~ 1.61 bar with a 35 litre EV......3.5litre reserve

If the system capacity/precharge/filling are 400ltrs/0.8bar/1.5 bar the final pressure will be ~ 2.52 bar with a 35 litre EV......9.84litre reserve

As you say, you can see above that the reserve of 9.84 litres (filling pressure of 1.5bar) eats up more of the expansion which results in a final pressure of 2.52bar vs a filling pressure of 1.0bar which results in a reserve of 3.5litres and a final pressure of 1.61bar.

You can do your own calculations, below. No, you can't, cannot attach a zipped file.

 

[king of pipes]

0.8 to I bar will be ok you should over size the expansion vessel by 25,% for safety but hey ho crack on . Kop

 

[Matt0029]

I have also got a little 2 litre vessel to fit for a 7litre under sink heater. That has come. With a pre charge of 1.9bar. Surely this should be 3/3.5 bar? As mains pressure after the reducing valve to the under sink heater will be around 3 bar.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Could be a 2 bar prv

 

[John.g]

If the pre charge is left at 1.9bar then even with a PRV pressure of 3.5 bar the final pressure will be 4.0 bar, if the precharge is increased to 3.5 bar the final would be 3.81 bar with PRV of 3.5 bar.
You will also require a safety (PRV) valve of 6.0 bar.

Around here AFAIK a E.vessel is not required for water heaters up to 10 litres, the expansion is taken up by the mains, but the nearest cold water draw off must be a minimum distance from the heater. (can't remember what this is).
As you have a PRV (pressure reducing) installed you probably still need the E.vessel as the PRV will act as a NRV.

 

[Matt0029]

Thanks but would the vessel use all its expansion before its needed when the water heats up? If left at 1.9bar?

 

[John.g]

You can see the various air space and water volumes below in a fairly basic spreadsheet.
If you wish, I can show you how I do these calcs.

System or HWC capacity 7.00 Litres Vessel Capacity 2.00 Litres Pre Charge Pressure 1.90 Bar.G Pre Charge Pressure 2.90 Bar.A Filling/supply Pressure 3.50 Bar.G Filling Pressure 4.50 Bar.A Air Space Vol 1.29 Litres Reserve Water Vol 0.71 Litres Expansion % 1.83 % Expansion 0.13 Litres Water Space Vol 0.84 Litres Air Space Vol 1.16 Litres Final Pressure 5.00 Bar.A Final Pressure 4.00 Bar.G

 

[John.g]

Its recommended that the pre charge pressure is set 0.2bar lower then the cold water pressure at the cylinder, shown below, as it keeps the diaphragm away from the cylinder end and can help to prevent water hammer. In your case because the EV volume is huge (almost 30%) in comparison with the HW volume then the difference in final pressures between 1.9/3.3bar precharge pressures is only 0.2bar.

System or HWC capacity	7.00	Litres
Vessel Capacity	2.00	Litres
Pre Charge Pressure	3.30	Bar.G
Pre Charge Pressure	4.30	Bar.A
Filling/supply Pressure	3.50	Bar.G
Filling Pressure	4.50	Bar.A
Air Space Vol	1.91	Litres
Reserve Water Vol	0.09	Litres
Expansion %	1.83	%
Expansion	0.13	Litres
Water Space Vol	0.22	Litres
Air Space Vol	1.78	Litres
Final Pressure	4.82	Bar.A
Final Pressure	3.82	Bar.G

 

[Matt0029]

So with the 2 litre expansion vessel having a charge of 1.9bar it won't really effect its performance in this case? The ones usually get are silver with a pre-charge of 3.5 bar I believe. The standing pressure of the system is 4 bar. No pressure reducer is currently fitted. I'm adding controls to a little under sink heater that at the moment has a vented tap that is broke. And a replacement is around £100. So cheaper to add a 6 bar pressure relief below the sink and expansion. Cold water draw off too close to allow expansion in to the mains

 

[Matt0029]

Can I ask what is ment by bar A/ bar G pre-charge?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

It’s a drip tap so you can’t install expansion vessel as the unit isn’t rated for pressure it’s open vented

what’s broken on the tap ?

 

[Matt0029]

It's a little 7 litre unvented cylinder. Its fed of the mains. It makes a racket when used have stripped down and re-grease to no luck. Or no luck till some one turns it too tight again.

 

[Matt0029]

That's what's on it

 

[ShaunCorbs]

That’s the thing it’s not unvented it’s gravity / equal pressure

the heater isn’t under pressure it’s always open to atmosphere hence when it’s heating the tap will drip most people try and tighten it down more which just breaks them

 

[Matt0029]

That’s the thing it’s not unvented it’s gravity / equal pressure

the heater isn’t under pressure it’s always open to atmosphere hence when it’s heating the tap will drip most people try and tighten it down more which just breaks them

Thats what's happened yes. So a pressure relief and expansion valve under the sink won't work on this heater?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Correct as it’s not designed for pressure always open to atmosphere eg like a vented cylinder

 

[John.g]

I thought a vented tap was for use with a unvented HW heater and should only leak/drip while the water is heating up and could be used in lieu of a expansion vessel but obviously not.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Correct but it’s not unvented if it’s open to atmosphere all the time

open the tap water going into the heater and comes out of the tap at the same time so no pressure in the heater

 

[John.g]

Can I ask what is ment by bar A/ bar G pre-charge?

Any calcs with air (or any gas) pressures involved must be done in absolute (a) units, absolute pressure is Gauge Pressure (g) + 1 (bar) you then subtract the 1 to return to gauge pressure. Atmospheric pressure is 0 Bar.g or 1 bar.a

 

[Matt0029]

I thought a vented tap was for use with a unvented HW heater and should only leak/drip while the water is heating up and could be used in lieu of a expansion vessel but obviously not.

Same, hence why this forum is great for building up knowledge.